When to get worried about lack of progression in school language?

[usuallydormant]

I'm a mum of a 3.10 year old. We live in France and our home language is English. Our DS was born in France and as we both work, he has been in a French speaking environment since he was about 8 months - he was at a French childminder until he started primary school in Sept (normal in France, it is more like full time playschool).

He was pretty late to talk in either language I think, and he never seemed to speak at the childminder although his comprehension seems fine. At school we assumed that it would just happen and he would be chattering away to friends by Christmas, in line with everything we read. But it's not really happening. His English is getting better, he has a great vocabulary, loves his books and in school he seems very happy, with lots of friends. He's in a small village school with a lovely atmosphere and the teachers seem fine about it and only bring it up when we ask directly but say he mixes his language a lot.

I've noticed that he will often speak in English to other kids and doesn't seem to know the difference. We do live in a very international area and language is a bit random. Many of the French adults we know can speak a little or a lot of English and some of his friends are also being brought up bilingual (although with two languages at home). We speak French out and about and to Francophone friends although not to him directly, apart from nursery rhymes now and again. So far, our policy has been not to stress, it will happen at some point, he is doing fine and very happy.

But I am afraid we are missing signs of problems that we should/could be addressing now. Most bilingual families we know speak both languages in the home and on a very superficial level it all seems like everyone else's kids were fluent practcially immediately (although I know that is probably not true). I do know one family where the Mum told me that her DS is in some kind of language therapy but they didn't pick it up as they assumed it was just due to him learning two languages and I suppose that is what I'm afraid of.

Has anyone else been through this and/or can share some good sites to get more information on what to expect/support from others?

Are you worrying he has some kind of speech delay?Doesn't sound like it if he is doing OK in English.
What does the school say? Does he speak French there?
Could it be because he associates speaking French only with being at school? Whereas in all other situations, family/social he speaks English?
It drives me mad when well-meaning, but ultimately deluded people try and practice their English on dd, then she'll reply in Italian because she knows their English is mediocre and everyone will get the message across sooner if they all speak Italian.
I think mixing languages at not quite 4 is normal.....I imagine it will all fall into place once he starts doing the reading/writing.
In the meantime I would expose him, if possible to more French speaking situations outside of school, where he is forced to speak to people in French. (playdates etc?)

Well the thing is, I am not sure how good his English is! I think he might be a bit behind but am not sure how to assess it and what is normal for this age. When I hear other kids talking, they seem much more fluent but most of them do seem to be girls. His grammar is all over the place and while his sentences are improving I would't say he is yet fluent in English. Everyone puts it down to the fact he is a boy and in a bilingual situation but surely he should be talking properly by now in English?

He does have lots of playdates with Francophone kids- little friends come in and play after school or he goes to their house. But it's not like they chat much: a lot of bam bash boosh noises! But I think that is a good point about other places were they speak French that is not the school. We can try to do a bit more of that.

The school says he's fine but when pressed say he speaks English without "knowing".

I think he is still quite young.
My dc spent their first yrs in the UK: therefore Italian was spoken at home (both me and dh are Italian) and English was spoken everywhere else (I sent them to nursery when they were about 12 months because I wanted them be in an English environment as well etc).

Ds started to speak at around 2. By the time he was your ds's age he would speak both Italian and English, but none was "perfect". When he spoke in Italian he constricted the sentence as if it was English iyswim, and his vowels sounded "weird" to Italian ears. When he spoke in English, he didn't have 100% of the vocabulary of course, plus he sometimes struggled to understand nursery songs!

Ah, and he would use some English words when speaking Italian.

That sounds similar Franca. The teachers say he does construct sentences in French but he doesn't speak very much, especially in groups. He does have a lot of french facial expressions - his lips definitely move in a way that is not anglophone!

Mostly I feel it must be normal but when you don't have a lot of kids to compare to, it also causes worry!

I know it does! Bilingualism is not as easy to acquire as it is commonly believed.

I loved how my ds would say NO when he was 18 months, he'd say "No" in the English way, not the Italian, I thought it was lovely.

If you are worried, the best thing to do would to get your DS assessed by a speech therapist in each language separately.

I had my DD assessed by an English speech therapist in England and a French speech therapist in France when she was 5.3. It was interesting, and confirmed my instinct that her English was more advanced than her French (totally average in French, about 9 months ahead of her age in English) despite living in France.

We moved to Belgium when dd was 2 and she started French speaking Kindergarten at 2.5. She didn't speak much the first year. I think there is a lot of processing going on. As Franca said, there was a lot of mixing of the 2 languages and weird sentence construction going on for a long time. But it all clicked in the end. I would just repeat the sentence in "proper" English/French.

I wouldn't worry too much just yet. Does he watch French TV? I can highly recommend it - Tiji/Playhouse Disney are about bearable. It really helped with vocab.

I do know several Anglophone children - and they are all boys - at DD's school who have failed to make sufficient progress in French after three years of école maternelle to enter CP comfortably. Since DD's school is bilingual French-English, some children, who are perhaps less linguistically inclined, fall back on English all the time.

Yes Bonsoir, that is my big worry. And I don't want it to come as a big surprise at CP and cause lots of thoughts of "oh if we had only caught it sooner". We're on the Franco Swiss border and there are educational alternatives if there are issues. I think I'll schedule a meeting with his teachers and start thinking about getting a speech therapist, for information if nothing else.

Regarding TV, I don't seem to have synched with French kids TV. TV time is when he comes home from school and there never seem to be any cartoons on our five channels! There are some DVDs he likes in French and some in English, but I have to say it is mostly English. We are in the process of getting digital tv so should have limitless access to Dora soon. Oh joy!

Presumably your DS is in petite section? I wouldn't worry for another year or so - give him some time and try to see whether you cannot engineer a Francophone best friend. I did that with my DD in MS and into GS, with the cooperation of a nice teacher, and it worked very well. The little Anglophone girls who clung together are still, in CP, a long way behind my DD in French.

I would give it another year before being worried. DD3 is 4y7m and has made massive progress in French in the last 6 months.

TBH there are plenty of children in PS who don't speak much even if they are monolingual.

French TV is a help, but it isn't a patch on cbeebies.

I have two boys 5 and 3. I was raised bilingual, so they are in effect 3rd gen bilinguals. I choose to speak the minority language at home with the boys, and let them 'absorb' english from the environment. Although I was a sahm, my eldest was out and about mixing with people right from birth. I put him into nursery at 2.5yrs (3 days a week 2.5 hours). However, he seemed not to even pick up the basics. In fact, he began to hate english and would get really upset if I used any with him at all. We eventually found out that he had glue ear. It took about a year until we had gromits fitted (not last summer but the one before). Now, he is in reception year, and is doing really well - is in the top set for reading etc. His vocab is a little behind the other kids, still, but I don't think it really affects him.

I know exactly how you feel. The worrying, the comparing with other kids, the guilt... I felt like it would never happen. It amazing now to be able to have conversations with him in both languages.

DS (just 6 and we are in the UK) speaks German with me and DD (2.5). Although he expresses himself perfectly fine in both languages, his grammar isn't that great in either language (e.g. I telled her) - but I think still in the normal range. A school friend of DS (5 and just speaks English) had trouble explaining to me how he got a scratch on his head. DD only started talking at about 2 but her language skills have exploded in the past 6 months. She speaks in full sentences, more so in German though, and her comprehension is great (she loves books, DS was never that excited about books).

I think your DS is young and will get there. I think girls develop language skills quicker than boys. However, get it checked out if you are worried.

Thanks everyone. You're right Frenchfancy, they don't really have conversations do they? His little friends don't seem to be that bothered when he responds in English. We have a meeting with the teacher in a while just to see how he's getting on and we can take it from there, but I'm going to try not to stress about it for the moment.

Hi
This is almost exactly what was going through my mind this time last year. We are in Spain, my daughter is 4.5 now. Last year was her first year in school after nursery from an early age, all in Spanish. We hardly know any English speakers where we live but we are both English. But she didn't speak spanish, only odd words, no sentences. She ofte just spoke to other children in English without realising. The teacher told us it was down to us and that we should speak in Spanish more at home. She said our daughter wasnt mixing, forming relationships and it was down to her language difficulties. I was pretty distressed. I had felt that she would get there in the end as she was surrounded by so much Spanish but when the teacher laid the blame at our door I felt terrible. I looked all over the internet, wrote to forums etc. Then I contacted a speech therapist who was a friend of a friend to have a chat about it and she asked a few questions about what my dd could do and said it was totally normal and not to worry. Since she started this school year in Sept it has been like a light switch being turned on. She talks nonstop, is aware of the two languages she can speak and she has loads of friends etc. It just came with time. She makes lots of errors still with English and her spoken Spanish is poor but it doesnt stop her. She's very tall so she looks like a 6 year old and speaks like a 2-3 year old in Spanish. But I'm not worried. She understands everything and is starting to learn Spanish so quickly that I have now started to worry about her English!