Children who don't care about consequences.

[alligatorpurse]

I have one.

He is 7, almost 8. I think he wants to rule the world. His temper is overwhelming and the only way for him is 100% his way.

I have read Alfie Kohn's book "Unconditional Parenting" and I do agree with parts of it, I see that some children do not respond to rewards and punishments, and that long-term it's better to have a curious, intelligent thinker than a yes-man or, worse, a military coup on my hands when he's a teenager.

But my goodness, dealing with this little dictator day to day is bloody exhausting. And I don't feel I'm really into UP to be honest. I have 3 dd's who behave quite normally and mostly do what they are asked etc.

One of our current issues is homework. He won't do it. He has some maths, spellings and sentences to do each week. He screams, cries, throws stuff, and once put the homework in the bin. He can do the homework if he tries, he just hates the "waste of his life" as he always says. I have talked to the teacher about it - she said try not to make too big a deal out of it, but she has sometimes kept him in at playtime to finish it. He was angry about that, but still says he's not doing any homework.

He eats and sleeps well, no issues there. He resists any organised activities but we've insisted he learns to swim, which is another weekly battle, and he makes very little effort with it. I've told him many times he can stop once his swimming is good enough (it's not), but he says he can already swim and doesn't need any more lessons.

I'm finding it hard to get the balance between letting him have the freedom he seems to need - I'm acutely aware we will have a big rebellion on our hands before too long otherwise - and insisting he accepts some boundaries and that life cannot be 100% the way he wants.

You really can't imagine what it's like unless you have a child like this. Any advice from those who do (and anyone else too) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks, that's very helpful. I'm going to order that book now.

The negotiations do take a ridiculously long time because DS is so good at arguing. He also has this knack of saying something really mature and perceptive in the middle of the discussion which catches me off guard! Like you said, I have to give reasons for everything I say, e.g. (today) He wanted to make something which didn't need to go in the oven so he could do it now, I said that flour needs to be cooked before you can eat it, so then he wanted to make something without flour etc etc. I explained that with baking you have to be very precise or it doesn't turn out right, which is why we use recipes. It's all a fine balacing act of making sure he's listening and letting him have his say. If he decides he's listened enough he switches off or tries to talk over me (reminds me of that Far Side card with the dog who hears only "blah blah blah blah blah, Fido").

I'm going to keep gently reinforcing the idea of compromise - I told him it's what we do when we can't get exactly what we want, we find something which is ok with everyone.

Dropping to say that we have had a teal turnaround here. Offering empathy in response to an outburst has worked so much more than attempting to take control.

DH had been open mouthed at my sudden brilliance at dealing with DS. I am the Child Whisperer ...

But it's pretty obvious, isn't it? If his emotions have taken control, I need to deal with that first. Reason can come later.

He's so much happier, too. I feel sad it's taken so long for me to click onto this.

Of course, the goalposts will move in a week or two ...

That's great FKC.

We had a good weekend too, I think partly because no homework was involved!

This thread is still really helping me. I had an off-moment yesterday at the end of the day while trying to get 4 kids into bed and DS didn't want to brush his teeth. I was tired and had lots of things to do before I could relax and I just couldn't find the energy to negotiate at length. But I KNEW deep down that loudly saying "DS, COME AND BRUSH YOUR TEETH, NOW!" was not going to get the desired result. Ah well.

I am continuing to find this thread helpful, too :)

Am amazed at the way that offering support for DS's emotional state deals with so much of his resistance.

I think I have been too rational (lacking empathy) in my approach. It's something I accuse DH of, actually, so that's an eye opener.

Nothing can be achieved until the mist has gone.

this is a lovely thread :)

yes yes yes to acknowledging emotion

Some children demand to be taken seriously. IMO (and just IMHO), taking them seriously might be the answer, ethically and practically. as in Taking Children Seriously

But you may think that this is utterly moonbat. The ideas about compromise I am reading upthread remind me, however, of 'common preference finding' in TCS parlance.

Marking my place as I am very interested in this thread, but don'thve the time to read now.

What an interesting link! Thank you. I feel instantly at home amongst those ideas.

I think I am instinctively uncomfortable with discipline, structure and coercion. I wonder if some of the irritation I feel when I have to handle DS's more challenging moments is that I don't want to! I hate being the sensible one.

DH is quite an authoritarian and conformist. I have tended to fall into line, I suppose, but then I find myself getting shitty with DS because I am enforcing a rule in which I don't really believe.

Sorry, this is self-indulgent - but ommmward's link is fascinating!

Also, since I switched my attention from 'controlling behaviour' to 'finding out the reason for such a strong reaction', DS and I are loving each other's company. Our relationship is so much more loving and positive. And his behaviour is better!

FFS, I could kick myself!

DELIGHTED to have hit the spot, FredKarnosCircus :o

Activate - I agree with you - however, I think it depends on you rown personality. All parents are different just as all children are different - I find it easy to take charge of this type of thing - but many people don't.
I find it difficult to understand when parents say their child WONT do this or that because I would not accept that from a child when it is something that I know they HAVE to do !
I don't see the point of pushing the swimming issue - but like you say - I wouldn't argue with a child, neither would I shout or rant at them - You need to set your intention and decide what you will and will not accept.
Its hard to understand that some people have difficulty with this when it seems easy to yourself.

Some of your DC sound like me as a child. I was very anxious and stressed about everything (and am dyslexic which added to it all). My DM still tell me that "I look down on her and won't let her help me". She couldn't cope with me and I am still considered the "bad" one in the family.

What would have helped is empathy and being taken seriously (was a very serious child). Once I got to teenage years and friends and boyfriends took priority for me, it actually helped me control my overreactions to things.

FredKarnoscircus,..

You do not have to instill fear to get a child to behave, or expect a child to be totally compliant - What they do have to know is that ultimately you are the one in charge !
Children do not respect parents who lie down and let them get away with being disruptive or hitting them.
If you want a relationship for life you need to be respected - and that works both ways - you respect your child too and you listen to them - boundaries have to be reset and be age appropriate.
Why do people think their child is the only child where NOTHING works ??
Parents will even prefer to think their child has a 'condition' rather than think they need to look at themselves !
Being in control MEANS understanding why the child is angry/disruptive - it means LISTENING but ultimately - it means being prepared to take responsibility.

Glad you came on here to berate me, davsmum. Or were you very cleverly showing me how it feels to be indiscriminately patronised and belittled, just to further elucidate the issue for me?

Methinks you are overly sensitive Fred ? I was not berating you - or patronising at all - and certainly no belittling !
I cannot MAKE you feel anything - thats your issue, surely ?
Its possible one can over complicate a problem by analysing and too much thinking about it.
Mostly its common sense and logic.

You addressed an entire post to me, most of which was pretty unsympathetic and disrespectful. You say what you like after the event.

You sound delighted with yourself and I'm not exactly crying into my coffee, so don't give it another thought.

Davsmum - I would like to suggest that you spend a decade or so living with a child with sensory processing disorder, or some sort of autistic spectrum disorder, before you so glibly and confidently write about the need for parents to "take responsibility" and parents inventing "conditions" to cover their parental inadequacies.

Fuck off now, there's a love.

Yes, your post was rather insensitive Davsmum.

When I had one child who mostly listened and obeyed, I thought I had this parenting thing sorted. Equally when I had 3 dcs who slept through the night at an early age I thought it was because I was such a good mum teaching them how to fall asleep on their own from a young age. Then I had dc4 who woke up every 3 hours until she was a year old.

I've learnt from my own dcs how different children with the same parents can be. So I would never assume I understand another person's situation with their child. I can offer suggestions if they ask, but I would never tell them "this is how you should raise children."

Alligator - I thought I had everything sewn up with my first child. Then he turned 4.

Having said that, he has really improved in the last week. I knew what I was doing was inadequate, but just didn't know the better alternative.

This thread has been really helpful for me, so thank you very much. DS will change again, so this is by no means the magic cure, but it's certainly made a positive difference now.

That's great FKC, it's helped me a lot too. It's true that dcs constantly change, and we also have good and bad weeks, for no particular reason I can see. I think my mood and ability to stay calm (or not) definitely plays a role.

Davsmum - I would like to suggest that you spend a decade or so living with a child with sensory processing disorder, or some sort of autistic spectrum disorder, before you so glibly and confidently write about the need for parents to "take responsibility" and parents inventing "conditions" to cover their parental inadequacies.

Fuck off now, there's a love.

Ommward.
As you have absolutely no idea of what experience I have with my own children - or what disorders they may have - your comment was frankly stupid.
It appears that yourself and Fredkarnoscircus want comments that you agree with and are sympathetic and are not realy interested in seeing it any other way. You prefer to make parenting more complicated than it need be. It isn't EASY -but it certainly does not need the intense analysis that you seem to need it to be, Forever looking for reasons. !
Children are quite straightforward - its adults who screw them up.
I am sure you will set a good example though - someone who says 'Fuck off now, there's a love' is obviously an excellent role model.

You're a real charmer, davsmum!

I don't really rate what you say either way (I think your thinking is simplistic, self-centred and reactionary); I'm just sorry you decided to play the Bad Fairy on what was otherwise a really supportive thread. I'm sure you feel fully justified, of course.

Thank you - I am a charmer, I agree.

Of course you will not rate what I say because you are not prepared to look at it any way that may be uncomfortable for you.
Your thinking is too analytical, complicated and because you are not prepared to look at your own responses - then THAT is self centred.
You see, whenever I had problems with children, I looked to myself and took advice and changed what I was doing - That is not self centred. Thats taking responsibility.

You really have not read my posts properly - You have jumped and reacted.

I am really sorry if you are offended. If you just want support and pats on the back, then I can't see how you will ever grow.

I've read through most of this chain. Alligatorpurses' son sounded just like my son, who is now 25. I did what everyone here suggested, saw child specialists, read, [yes, the Explosive Child] always believing I could change him and make a difference. Well you know what? Parents can do a lot, but we're not magician's. We also have to work with the personality and issues our child comes with. And if you haven't had a child this challenging, never walked in our shoes, you have NO right to criticize or pass judgement.

I said my son is 25 and you know what, he hasn't changed that much. He has issues with relationships and accepting responsibility for what he does and learning from his consequences. I'm still trying to find some peace with him. I have two other older children, a son 30 and a daughter who's 33. Both are in healthy marriages with great partners and successful careers they love. I did nothing different with them than I did with my youngest son.
I get angry when people are hard on parents who have difficult children. It's hard enough parenting these children, without taking the blame for why they're like that.
What I'm working on is realizing that I can't control anyone but myself and to accept I've done everything and more to give my son a chance for success. If he won't take it, I can't do more. I've taken him to the water MANY times, but I can't make him drink!!

To alligatorpurse and other parents with challenging kids, do the best you can, get the help you need, enlist others to help you, but in the end remember,your child makes their own decisions, one's you are NOT responsible for.