PhD submission

[bubbles22]

I am just about to submit my PhD. I have never been to the university throughout my course as I have two small children (one of whom is autistic) and live about 4 hours away.

I have had yearly reviews with my supervisor (who is a leader in the field which is my reason for choosing this uni) and a deputy graduate director.

My supervisor says my PhD is ready. However, he is useless on the practical stuff. He is a Prof and has little interest in teaching etc and seems to be able to offer no practical advice.

So, here's a few questions:

1. Is is usually to get feedback from examiners before the viva?

1. Does a viva have to be held?

1. How much notice do you usually get?

1. Does your uni exclude footnotes from the thesis wordcount? Mine does as long as you are not trying to use the footnotes to improperly increase your wordcount. If in doubt, you are supposed to ask your supervisor. Mine initially agreed - exclude them all. Now (just as I'm about to submit) he suggests I prune them. I have but he still doesn't seem able to confirm that will be ok.

1. What are your experiences of your viva? Prof has just said 'good luck' and that's it!

Any help much appreciated

1. Yes
2. Yes as far as I know
3. Notice for what?
4. Will be Uni specific - check your guidance notes
5. Yup, sounds like standard advice!!

Sorry for being so brief. Realise I'm actually being very little use to you!
Good luck - perhaps try to discuss with others from your course who have already been Viva'd?

Another quick response :)

1. I got some, but didn't think this was totally standard
2. Yes
3. They should tell you the date of the viva as soon as it is arranged with external examiners unfortunately this can be a bit elastic if they are busy etc. but I found out the day/time within 3/4 weeks of submitting
4. Um, can't remember but I suspect they aren't going to challenge wordcount at a viva unless it is noticeably high without the help of word count in Word!
5. I was told that if you get to the viva stage, you shouldn't worry -- for a student to fail at that stage signals a failure in your supervisors in any case, and they should not let you submit if you wouldn't be able to pass.

Try to enjoy the experience, as it is the only time you will have to discuss your work in depth with people who can understand it and have actually read the whole thing through carefully. This won't happen again!

Good luck!

God - sorry, meant

1. NO!

Thanks.

Ultimate. I don't know anyone else from the course. I have never been to the Uni. I have checked the guidance notes and with the Registry and Prof and no one seems to be clear about it. I'll leave it as it is.

Why 'NO!'??I read somewhere - I think it was the 'how to get a PhD' book that you can get feedback sometimes.It seems practical common sense to me. The whole thing really is antiquated nonsense.

Interesting what you say about a viva. It makes sense although it's not the experience I've heard of from others - submission then routine viva.

Thanks again

Bubbles First of all congrats on submitting! I am sending my first full draft to my committee this week so looking forward to when i get to your stage.

I remember on an old thread that quite a few people recommen

sorry .. too quick with the buttons ... recommended Rowena Murray How to Survive your viva as good prep for the viva. My experience is that comments are prepared by external examiner but they are for the examining committee and not the candidate but it probably varies across unis.

unis can be so vague on some rules as i can't figure out whether mine counts footnotes either!

Good luck

1. No
2. Yes
3. About a month for me
4. Footnotes are always included, no matter what
5. It was a good experience -- it felt good to speak to people who had read all my work without tracking its genesis, they gave me loads of tips on what to do next and were very cheering. It was under 2 hours. I thought I wanted to go for a drink with a friend after but instead I got on the bus and burst into tears, then got the train home (the viva wasn't where my uni was as I had two external examiners). After that I cheered right up and went out for a lovely dinner and champagne.

Thanks folks.

The rule says that footnotes are not included unless they contain substantive work i.e. work that should be in the main text. My supervisor seems to be struggling to work out what that means!

It is interesting to hear about people feeling their viva was a positive experience. I just can't see that being the case. It has taken me so long to get here - I've done it part-time, through two maternity leaves and the diagnosis of my son's autism - that I just want to see the back of it.

I'm not an academic or a young student. I spent years in practise as a lawyer before deciding to do a PhD while pregnant. My supervisor has not provided any encouragement and the uni have been useless. I suppose that has all taken the edge of it.

I heard today that I had got a statement for my son and I suppose this all feels a bit sidelined in comparison!

Blimey what a whinge!!

Sunsplash - thanks for the tip. I shall get the book.

If my supervisor has approved it, do you think it should be ok?

Has anyone else had knowledge or experience of people getting knocked back after being told it was ok to submit. He is a 'leader in the field'.

Regs state: word count excludes appendices and footnotes (as long as the latter do not contain substantive argument).

Hi again bubbles

I did mine part-time and like you couldn't wait to get it finished. Had a few problems with supervision etc over the years that just really dragged it out. BUT believe me the viva was a satisfying stage -- especially if you live away and are part time, it makes it feel more concrete. Not least because you will have a live conversation about your writing, your ideas, the examiners may converse with each other about them or disagree, it is very interesting if nerve-wracking.

If your supervisor has supervised many previous PhDs and had them go through successfully I seriously wouldn't worry at this stage. Kudos for getting your thesis done with so little support and contact! Do you know who your externals will be?? When you do you can research their backgrounds and thus prepare yourself for their possible lines of questioning ?

Thanks easilydistracted.That is reassuring. Yes, prof has had lots of PhD students and I assume they've all got through ok! I know who may examiners will be and have quoted one significantly.

I just cannot imagine myself there and talking about it. It seems a wolrd away from my life!

Hi bubbles, congratulations with being so close to completing your PhD. I'm very jealous!

1. No. In my uni/department the external examinors will sometimes write to the supervisor to tell them what they think. General comments about the quality of the work. In such a letter the external examinor can express concerns that the work isn't up to scratch. In that case the supervisor should (but isn't obliged) to tell the student to work a bit more before (re)submitting in a few months. The letter is not shown the student in any case.
2. Yes, always.
3. In my uni/department it is expected that the external examinor(s) will hold the viva within 3 months of receiving your thesis. They will agree date early on, sometimes before the viva has been received by them.
4. Make sure you comply with university guidelines. Your library/school/department should be able to advise if your supervisor isn't. There is always a PhD "progression" responsible person, much like a PGR officer (admin person) who again will know what the rules are.
5. Our uni offers lots of free viva workshops, lots of different formats and over either a few hours, a half day or a full day. I would check this out if I were you.

I'm sorry the experience you have had so far hasn't been the best at your uni. Its not uncommon though sadly. I have heard of people who have a good thesis but not been able to DEFEND their work and therefore failed, but also of people with poor quality written thesis but who defended their work brilliantly and therefore passed. Its also possible not to achieve a PhD but gain an MPhil. Not sure how common these are. Its probably a lot of scaremongering! I have also heard of supervisors who have been fairly out of touch both with students work and with what examinors might want. Do you know who your examinors are yet? Read their work, make sure you cite them in your thesis and get feel for who they are (google them).

You could also ask your supervisor how many PhD students he has had, how many of them were successful/failed etc. Mine has had 30 something and so far none has failed (I really don't wish to be the one to break that record...) and I guess that's a good estimate of how well he judges if I am ready (when I get that far). If you are unsure I would ask someone else in your department to read your work, or at least sections of it (and give those you are less sure of!). Do you have a second supervisor who you could force convince to read it?

Sorry if my post has a negative tint too it! My supervisor has said that the most important thing to do at a viva is to defend your work (i.e. research decisions you have taken). Without the defence you can't be a doctor is his opinion basically and hence it wont be awarded. So know your work and defend it and you'll do well

Good luck!

try the book by Rowena Murray referenced on this page. I assume you are at a UK university? The rules can be very different for overseas Univs.

I always tell my students that it's the only chance you'll get to sit with two people who really have read through the entire PhD - enjoy it!

And well done for finishing under such unconventional circumstances!

firstly, well done for finishing. I am still plodding on.. i wanted to second the point snuppline said about viva preparation workshops. my uni seems to run them quite regularly. I also live a 4 hour journey from uni, don't tend to go often (you can do most things on line now), but i think i will go to one of these.

i am dreading my viva as i am so much better explaining something on paper than out loud!

Oooh how exciting! Well done for finishing your write up!

Answers to the questions:

1. Some on here seem to have had some feedback, but no-one I know at my University got any feedback at all prior to the vivia.

1. Yep, a viva is a really important part of the whole PhD process (and it's the only time you'll get to discuss your thesis with people who have actually read it, so enjoy it)!

1. Depends, usually on your external examiner. I think I got about 4 weeks notice of the viva, but it was MONTHS after I submitted.

1. Sorry, don't know. I didn't have footnotes. Had a few appendices, which didn't count under my Uni. guidelines, but I was well under the word count, even with them included.

1. The viva can be a bit daunting. At my Uni both the examiners and the student had to be in full academic dress, which racked up the tension nicely, but all in all, I quite enjoyed it - a great chance to talk about your years of work with people who understand and (hopefully) appreciate it. And the defence of your premise is quite a good brain stretching exercise. A lot depends on your examiners. Just remember that no-one in the world knows more about your thesis topic than you do!!

As an aside, if you've quoted one examiner extensively, for god's sake make sure you re-read their papers before your viva and really know what you're talking about there.

I think I had a bit of a rubbish viva. I didn't have it until a good 4 months after I submitted, and 16 months after I finished lab work (I did a PGCE and started my first teaching job while writing up). I really couldn't remember enough about the details to answer every question, which was quite embarassing , but it was only 1 1/2 hours, which wasn't long in comparison with my peers, so I think I would have had to be really bad on the day not to pass.

Good luck!!

And remember how lucky we are in the UK. MY supervisor went to France to be on the panel of examiners for the thesis defence of a student who worked in our lab for a month. And it was all done in public in a lecture theatre. And I though I was hard done by having never met my internal examiner!

Thanks alot for your thought and effort in replying.

Yes, I am at a UK university which, sadly, despite seeing itself as progressive, has been very poor at offering any advice/assistance. I have had to fight to eek out any accomodations because of my circumstances.

Anyway, I think FallenMadonna that is what I dread. Being so pushed from pillar to post, kids, thesis, work, that I end up thinking 'bloody hell who wrote that, or what did so and so say'. I mean I'm hardly in the same situation as a 20 something with nothing else to focus on.

Still definitely meets the public examination by panel!!

Thanks again. I will get that book!

It was fine though, in the end. Passed on the day! No need to fret, apart from the factor.

I submitted last year:

1. At our institution - no - never.

1. Yes.

1. One month.

1. Not sure - I didn't use footnotes at all.

1. It was quite stressful as I was pretty anxious. Like you, I rarely saw my supervisor and he was away during my viva. My viva was 4 months after submission - a bit later than I would have liked. It went OK though - very minor corrections.

It's worth knowing the angle your examiners will have on your work.

Good luck - you're nearly done yay!!

Thanks. How do you find out the angle the examiners will have on your work? Apart from their work obviously.

It should be fairly obvious from their previous work - that will tend to give them a bias when looking at your work, e.g. they are likely to focus on areas of expertise that overlap and will tend to be interested in how your work does or does not support theirs.

There will probably be other areas that neither examiner is particularly expert in - they may ask about it but they can't be as challenging and critical as your expertise is probably greater than theirs.

Bubbles, I think there is also some good advise about how to prepare practically for your viva in the "how to get a PhD" book you mentioned earlier. It says something about writing out a list of your chapters with the sections and key points in them. You number this and then also add postit notes with corresponding numbers to the relevant pages in your thesis. That way its easy to flip through to the right part during the viva. It also forces you to think in concrete terms about your main points, how those were build ("well dear examinor may I direct your attention to the section 2-1-2 where I argue that...this lead to the study no 3 where I found x, y and z which lead me to conclude as I do...). Also you must know what contribution your thesis makes to the field. That may be one of the first questions they ask you.

As a final comment my supervisor says that when he is examinor of a PhD thesis he goes through the thesis writing down questions (anything from very minor things like spelling mistakes to more substantial things). He says he makes notes on the page using postit notes to indicate where he has questions. He creates a list of general and 'most important' questions that he wants answered which he has on a sheet of paper and he starts of with the general ones before literally leafing through the entire thesis to ask each and every question he has noted. At the end if his major questions haven't been answered by the leaf through he then makes sure he gets those discussed. He says it can be very daunting to see the number of postits stuck out from ones own thesis but to remember that they are mostly spelling mistakes and general discussion points.

As a side note, I'm not english and in my country there is a public lecture which forms part of the viva process on the evening before the viva. The candidate is in full academic dress, so is the panel, and the viva itself is normally 8 hours and in public theatre. Media often present because there are few PhD candidates produced in my country. Tales of fainting/vomitting and general exhausting from 8 hours of standing are frequent. Glad I'm doing mine in the UK!

1. Is is usually to get feedback from examiners before the viva?

no, but you'll get lots during the viva

1. Does a viva have to be held?

yes

1. How much notice do you usually get?

I submitted on january the 30th, viva was april the 9th (I think!) and I found out the viva date mid-march - so not a huge amount of notice, but enough to book holidays from work!

1. Does your uni exclude footnotes from the thesis wordcount? Mine does as long as you are not trying to use the footnotes to improperly increase your wordcount. If in doubt, you are supposed to ask your supervisor. Mine initially agreed - exclude them all. Now (just as I'm about to submit) he suggests I prune them. I have but he still doesn't seem able to confirm that will be ok.

it should be fine - can you check with the department PhD student advisor/tutor person? we had a member of staff who any PhD student could speak to, who either knew these things, or knew where to look.

1. What are your experiences of your viva? Prof has just said 'good luck' and that's it!

I was very unlucky - mine was absolutely the worst experience of my life (until 3 day labour with DS...). I was wrong footed from the start by my internal examiner who was trying to prove something about himself - not sure what. However, my external was kind, and spent much of the viva trying to shut him up. the viva was 4.5 hours long, and we didn't make it to the last 2 chapters - bearing in mind my thesis was only 180 pages long (including references) and only 6 chapters, it was a bit absurd. The reason it took so long was the internal who veered so far away from my work we ended up basically talking about a different field - his work - and he was not interested in what I had to say. I got more and more worked up, and just froze by about half way through, so couldn't even answer the most basic questions! I found it quite demoralising, and even when they said I'd passed subject to minor corrections (basically typos), it felt like a failure. I spent the following few hours/days crying. My supervisor has said he won't be using that examiner again, and it turned out that he (the examiner) is not popular in the uni after a few bad vivas! The external examiner was great though - and she gave me lots of really positive feedback. I felt she understood what the viva was for, whereas the internal thought it was about him.

I have so many friends who had really positive vivas though - they had nice examiners, who examined fairly. Several were told at the beginning of the viva that they'd passed on the thesis alone. My supervisor was told before my viva by my examinors that I'd passed on my thesis alone, wish they'd told me though!!

I also wish so much I'd had a proper practice viva. I went through the thesis with one of the profs in the department, but not a proper grilling. My father always does pretty grim practice vivas so that students are scared into reading more, then he'll do a repeat one which is more positive a week or two later. He says that the effort he puts into it is worth it when the student comes out of the real viva beaming from ear to ear :o best of luck with it all, and enjoy the feeling of liberation after you submit (and before you find out the viva date)!

Bubbles, I could have written your post. Over 40 and not in academia but thought the Phd would be a good way to rekindle the brain cells and then DD came along. I am terified of my viva as i find it really hard to remember who said what when and the intricacies of their arguments and as my uni is actually overseas I have felt quite distanced from academic debate! So I know how you feel but others have triumphed and so will we! Let us know how it goes.