Curious - why don't more people use baby carriers?

[togarama]

I'm increasingly curious about this and just wondered if others on MN could shed some light on their choice of buggy Vs carrier (or both).

I don't know many other parents IRL and those I do come into contact with are often so obviously negative about baby carriers that I don't think I would gain anything other than a sore ear from asking them....

We've always used slings, wraps and other carriers with 20 month old DD because they're comfortable (for us and baby), convenient (especially since they leave your hands free) and fit our lifestyle. We walk a lot, like to be spontaneous and don't want to have to think about buggy access / stair problems every time we leave the house. I also travel a lot by train and tube and can't even begin to imagine the hassle of trying to cart a pram or buggy around the public transport system.

However, I'm always very conscious when with other parents (e.g. dropping DD at nursery and being stared at...) that we're very much in a minority and I don't really understand why. Carriers just seem to have so many advantages and appear much more logical for commuting and city living. But buggies are somehow still the choice of the majority.

Why is this?

DreamTeamGirl - sounds lika a fleece pouch, perhaps a brightsparksling or hotsling. Did it go diagonally across your body?

A mei tai is a square of fabric with four straps.

Pouches are fitted to the body - no adjustments can be made - so it's essential to get the right size. It sounds like yours was too big.

And situations like yours are exactly why sling meets exist - to help. With slings there can be no subsitution for experienced real life help.

I can't push things PixelHerder - never liked the idea of a pram, thought I would have to get used it it - went to look at some, despaired over my lack of co-ordination. I've pushed friends LOs and I am a horrendous pram driver - I hit people, I get awful backache from stooping, I cannot get the hang of the angling up and down step,s kerbs, etc, so the poor kid I'm pushing gets rattled.

Thankfully for the public I never had to get one of my own.

Agree with Blueberry that there are a fair few conditions where you are actively dissuaded from putting on weight (your own or somebody else's) because your joints should not take extra strain. And might add from own experience that if you have been badly sewn up/had infected stitches, you will feel every extra ounce.

I did carry dd a fair bit actually, once my stitches got better. But would never have thought of it as a lifestyle choice, one of those things that define your parenting.

I used a tomy baby carrier about twice with DS1 as I didn't have access to t'internet to find out what else was available. It hurt my back so I gave up immediately and used a pram everywhere.

With DS 2 I got a Moby at 3 months as I was unable to fit the pram into the car without folding down the seats (not a good option in the pouring rain when you're late for the school run because you spent too long on MN instead of getting ready ).

It was AMAZING! I pre-tied it, popped baby in and then went to the car. Popped him out into the car seat, drove to school (6 miles away) then popped him back in again. It was so much quicker than the pram!

I used the Moby until he was about 11 months old and getting too heavy for a stretchy, then found an online forum where I have since spent far too much money on gorgeous wraps....! Currently he is 23 months and I can no longer wear him as I am 17 weeks pregnant with no 3 and have SPD, he is just too heavy. But as he now walks it is no problem. (Not sure I even know where the pram is actually).

And as for sling meets, I have been to 2 and they are lovely. You get to sit around and eat cake, chat to each other and get help with carries you are struggling with - I struggled with some back carries but found the other more experienced babywearers were able to give some really good advice, and help me wrap him on. I also got to see and try some of the more expensive wraps which I would never buy but did think were pretty, so am glad to have tried. Oh and did I mention the cake???

I am going to use the pram with the new baby, but only for when I go clothes shopping - I have yet to work out how to try on a dress with a baby attached to you!

Normality, thanks for your post, I think I may well come to a slingmeet as I really do want to learn proper wrap carries with my Girasol with an over 2 year old.

Are yours in London? I do say I've been put off by the stereotype, which is wrong of me.

Regarding clobber, I use either a small rucksack if I know I'm going to do some shopping, or mostly a Longchamps Pliage bag -- the large size. I find the handle drop and the leather means it doesn't slip off

I never carry an umbrella. I think living in the tropics trains you to dodge rain. As for drizzle, well, couldn't care less.

I have my kid in a front carry (the way she likes to nap) in a Bebo right now. She's asleep. We went to the park and playgroup (she walked mostly) and I then walked her to nap (took long this time) and bought some stuff at the local fishmongers and provisions including a medium size mixing bowl from a chemists.

So in my bag I have 3 nappies, a fleece, wipes, small bottle of Evian, box of carrots (but usually have about 3-5 small boxes of lunch/snack stuff) , an apple, purse, keys, phone, two small books, a few plastic small toys and all that shopping.

Like togarama says, it depends on what you are used to. It didn't occur to me to get a pram when she was small, then as she got heavier I did toy with the idea (specially when I had swine flu) but then we passed that stage and she walks more so it became oddly less of an issue.

Also, I've never had a cot - another item parents think is essential (I did use an amby sometimes)

Normal day, I definitely feel I'm carrying something, but it's not like lugging heavy shopping as she's spapped on me.

I have really good core strength now, and could crack walnuts between my thighs

Oh, regarding going clothes shopping I used to get her out and put her on the wrap on the floor of the changing room. If she was asleep, I'd go for a wonder first. She never sleeps that long so it wasn't an all-day wait.

I'd enlist the help of the staff in the shop to gather and hold all the stuff for me to try on quickly.

Shoes you can try on when they're asleep.

KirstyJC: I have yet to work out how to try on a dress with a baby attached to you!

Yes, this one is pretty much impossible with a baby carrier. Once DD was walking I would take her out of the carrier and let her play in the changing cubicle while I tried on.

Unfortunately, she loves to play "peekaboo" with the curtain and other changing room users, turning me into an inadvertant flasher.

These days I definitely leave DD with DH if I'm planning on buying clothes...

Hi Normality
Yes it was diagonal- I just had a look a the Coorie pouch looks familiar
Darn thing just didn't seem to fit me as you said.

If I ever get number 2 I will get to a meet for sure.
Thanks

Re lying flat. I thought you were supposed to noy have a baby in a car seat for too long because lying scrunched up isn't good for them? So I always thought being scrunched up in the carrier would be even worse. I might have completely got the wrong end of the stick...

Having said that the back carrier does seem very comfy for dd because she can kind of lean forward onto me and has a nice pillow. The front carrier she gets a bit fed up with after an hour or two.

normality many thanks for the link

In a proper sling they aren't scrunched and slightly bent like in a carseat.

Plus, the most time m daughter's been in one without being either taken out or fed has been 1-1/2 to 2 hours. Which is the limit for carseats.

MarineIguana

If a baby is scrunched up, you need to look at your positioning. I personally only use upright carries, which are excellent positioning for a newborn, with total spinal support, completely adjustable-to-suit head support, and optimal hip positioning encouraging correct hip development. Time in a properly tied woven wrap, for example counts as 'tummy time' and improves core strength.

What is your 'front carrier' and what is your 'back carrier' ? I have only ever used carriers that are both.

There are lots of studies on the subject, including Dr. Evelin Kirkilionis's study retrospectively titled 'Unfounded fear of postural damage by carrying'

Dr. Eckhard Bonnet, specialist in paediatrics, youth medicine, environmental medicine and sports medicine, states:

"Quite the contrary,: this regular loading and unloading on the spine and hip joints greatly increases the growth stimulus. We have not yet seen any healthy child that has been carried from the very beginning which developed a hip dysplasia or scoliosis. We have however seen many "pram children" (who lie on their backs) who have deformed skulls (flattened on the back or sides), with deformed bodies, hip dysplasia, and children who lie on their fronts with "frog-positions" of the legs and feet"

MarineIguana: Re lying flat. I thought you were supposed to noy have a baby in a car seat for too long because lying scrunched up isn't good for them?

In carseat there is pressure on the back of the baby's head and the base of their spine.

In a good carrier the baby's spine is fully supported along its length and through the hips. There are concerns about pressure on baby's spine in certain models of carrier (some of the older Bjorns for example - I've often seen people refer to these as "crotch danglers" for obvious reasons). With something like an Ergo, Mei Tai, woven wrap etc.. this "dangling" doesn't happen.

When DD was small I remember looking up research about spine and hip development in carried babies vs pram-using babies. As I recall there was no difference for most children and a noticeable benefit for babies with certain hip problems where a carrier kept their hips in the correct, flexed position.

I have used prams and carriers I have never seen it as a one or the other situation. You use what suits you and your life. There is no superior way of transporting a child.

I found use my wilkinet carrier great when I had ds (my first) and I was living in London, it made using the bus nice and easy, ds was secure and comfy and he could be turned round when he was carried in front so he could see what was going on when he was olde enough. But I never got on with it as a back carrier. Then before ds was quite one I was pregnant asgain and baby carrying once the pregnancy was past halfway was out - when I had a 19mo and a newborn to deal with I used the carrier less and the tandem pushchair more, we had moved out of the city and I was carrying more stuff with me (and I don't drive), when you are exploring a new area and shops and cafes are virtually nil then a pushchair provides storage for drinks snacks and changing mats.

Then dd2 came along when dd1 was 2 1/2 and I have a beko soft structered carrier (like an ergo) it is very useful when travelling and comfortable to wear but now dd2 is nearly 2 herself I find she wants to walk more herself anyway.

With the frequently crappy weather (two snowy winters for eg) and two hands to hold crossing roads various bags to carry etc. a carrier has a role to play but a buggy is easier for me most of the time.

If you have fewer children with wider age gaps then it might be possible to dispense with a buggy entirely - but I see no reason to restrict myself tbh - It is liberating to be free of a pushchair when tramping up and downstairs at train staions but when you are on a daytrip with other children and are already a packhorse for all their shit coats, drinks, books, sarnies and spare pants nappies etc. then it is not liberating just exhausting...

I was advised by an orthopedic paediatrician in Asia to carry her in a sling/wrap that would have her bum lower than her knee bend as it was beneficial for a clicky hip. Anything that kept her hips apart in the froggy position was good for hip development, he said.

i used both, but the reasons for not having a carrier/using the push-chair

1. i have a bad back & can't carry much weight on it, or for very long
2. dd got hot & SCREAMED the place down in a carrier (so ok in winter, outdoors, but otherwise not so good)
3. push-chair also held shopping etc.
4. dd would sleep in push-chair, but not in carrier.
5. i found having the extra 'lump' a bit awkward in the front & thought putting her on the back would be quite anti-social. when pushing her, i could lean over & chat etc.

but had i been getting a bus/train anywhere, and didn't have a pile of bags to carry, i would have used it a lot more.

Normality, it's good to hear some sensible advice on sling use.

I wonder if part of the reason so many of us struggle with discomfort with slings is that in our culture we have very poor posture and use our bodies badly, so when it comes to carrying, back problems are exacerbated. For example, many, many people tend to bend at the waist rather than at the knees, and we find squatting much harder than some cultures who do lots of jobs in that position. I would imagine that all of this has an effect on how easy it is for some of us to carry our little ones.

I have hypermobility, restricted movement in my upper back, poor posture which is exacerbated by front carries and tight nerves, all of which make it difficult to use a sling much. My physio said there was probably not much worse I could do to my back than carry DS on the front and a rucksack of shopping on my back (which I was doing when I first went to see her) - and told me to use the pushchair only. :(

I find it interesting the different views on carrying shopping. A normal trip to town for me would usually involves 15-20 lbs fruit & veg, 8-12 pints of milk and about 15 library books. Even if I could carry my 26 lb DS more easily, I'd never be able to manage that much shopping without a pushchair. But it's obvious everyone does things differently.

And I suspect that some sling users like me never really got the chance to build up our strength gradually. I went from never using a sling to wearing a 99th centile baby in it for about 7 hours a day every day when he was younger and colicky / refusing to sleep. I can see that if you could work your way up gradually it might be less of a problem for your back.

I do think it's a shame that carriers like the Baby Bjorn fill the market rather than decent fabric slings, though, as many people's experience of carriers is less than positive as a result.

AngelDog:"A normal trip to town for me would usually involve 15-20 lbs fruit & veg, 8-12 pints of milk and about 15 library books."

Wow! Even using a pram that's an impressive load to take home.

By comparison, a typical shop for me might be 1 pint of milk (to tide us over until the internet delivery arrives), 1 small tub of hummus (because nowhere is quite as good as the local Turkish shop), a packet of rosemary (because I finished it all making soup the previous night) and a packet of flapjacks for DD and DH (if they've been good...).

I just don't do shopping on your scale by hand. If I did, I think I'd need a pram (and a strong man to push it for me).

Angeldog - it's good to see you are seeing a physio, because it seems to me that there are so many posters on this thread who are suffering with painful backs but do not seem to be recieving treatment for it.

That load would break my pram, let alone my back!

Yes, it's hard work pushing it all in the pram! Fortunately coming home from town is downhill. :) I'm always very grateful that I don't have twins.

belgo, you're absolutely right about people having treatment. Of course, there are also those people who've had treatment but it hasn't sorted the problem.

Togarama and other sling wearers, could you recommend a small daysack/bag for carrying baby bits whilst wearing a sling? Or do you just mean something like a cross body bag, as the baby rucksack I have could be used as a child carrier, it's so blooming big.

DinahRod: I have a couple of good ones.

One is a small cloth Ergo backpack which clips onto the ergo carrier but can also be used independently.

My favourite is just a mini daysack which originally came as the detachable part of a big rucksack. I think I got the whole thing from Blacks years ago. It's big enough for a few nappies, wipes, travel changing mat and change of clothes. It also has lots of compartments to keep things organised and you can put keys, cards etc.. in too if you want. In terms of size, you could fit a paperback, bottle of water and lunchbox in there but not an A4 pad.

It's like the smaller part of [[http://www.amazon.co.uk/Outdoor-Detachable-Backpack-Rucksack-Camping/dp/B001V85JUQ
this]]

I don't get on with cross-body bags (big boobs and prefer to be balanced on each shoulder).

The judgeyness going both ways on this thread is weird, but the rest of the discussion is interesting.

One of the first things we bought was a pram and I spent hooooours thinking about it - so why would it be odd to do similar research into slings?

Then one day I realised there are massive steps up to my house. Bugger. They don't prevent me from using the pram at all, but it does mean I can't just wheel a sleeping baby in. And my pram is quite heavy so sometimes I just cannot be bothered lugging it up and down the steps. So I got a couple of slings as well. One is a mei tai (four straps on a square that you tie around yourself) and one is a soft-structured carrier (a Yamo) - it has buckles and was recommended to me here.

I use both the pram and my carriers. The pram for the walk into town, so I can bung things underneath and buy stuff while out etc and the carriers for popping round to groups or a quick walk with the baby to get him to take a nap if he's in a grump. If I'm walking round the block I just take keys and an umbrella. If it's a longer walk I have a small cross-body bag that I can fit a disposable change mat, change of clothes and spare nappies/wipes/keys/small umbrella in.

If there was a slingmeet near me I'd go to it to try on more slings to see if there was one that fit even better - don't think it makes me a lentil weaver does it? Unless it happens to you without you realising...

I think most people don't use slings because there aren't enough good ones cheap enough on the market. The only person in RL I've met who's used slings has only tried a BB and a Babasling. She has massive boobs so they get in the way of the Babasling and she says it's okay but uncomfy after a short while, and says the BB is just painful. She's simply not interested in trying any others after shelling out on them.

Most of the marketing is on forward-facing front carriers too, when it's going to be more comfy for the wearer if baby faces in on the front when young (and then moved to the back when older). It's hardly going to catch on big-style when the bigger companies are only selling painful carriers. However, the stretchy wraps seem to be catching on (I will buy one of these if I ever have another little one, they're great for newborns but babies do get too heavy for them after a while) and I wonder if they'll get more people investigating.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with never using a carrier. My pram is fab (apart from the bloody steps to my house). But I do think a lot of people would enjoy carrying if only there were better options more readily available.

Thank you Togarama, especially for the links, that's great