I don't have to answer every single time...

[mamateur]

We've just brought DN to live with us. He's 12. His behaviour hasn't been that bad, he doesn't do anything unless we tell him but pretty does if we do. He's had a few detentions at his new school but that seems to have stopped since he realised they were consistent.

He does what I say quite sullenly and only really speaks to me to tell me I need to do something for him. I'm usually with DS (1) so if I speak to him, he sort of replies to DS (who he loves).

This morning I asked him to bring his plates in from his bedroom. He completely ignored me. I said DN, blah blah repeat (nicely). He said, rudely, I don't have to answer you every time you say something.

I said yes you do.

I feel he sees me as the person who 'looks after' him but nothing more.

I know it's early days but this is a permanent arrangement as he was brought up by MIL (his granny) since he was a baby when his mother died. He chose to come here, insisted in fact, because he was desperate to change schools after he fell out with his friends.

DN has just gone to school and I know it's silly but I'm in a state of depression that this is the future. I've tried and continue to try to do things with him, and before the computer got set up we did lots of things together, particularly cooking. Now he just comes in, asks what's for dinner, says nothing, goes back to his room, comes back when I call him. If it's not actually on the plate he goes out again.

I value politeness and find this very tough.

DP will support me but frankly he was brought up by the same woman so doesn't really see the problem till I point it out.

Sorry, I think I just needed a mini rant.

I too value politeness. One day I will get some from my 10yo ds! No, seriously, I will!

I think we are right to keep chipping away. One day our labours will bear fruit! They'll just have to. If you don't ask for it, they won't know they are supposed to deliver.

But lurking in own room is a normal state for the age, so I think we might have to give up on that one. Do you get the loud rappers too? I try to call ds up on any actual rudeness, but accept that he needs loads of own space.

The thing is, he's not mine, he was never my baby. I can cope with him being rude or angry even, it's just that he treats me like the delegated person to attend to his food and washing needs but nothing more. I just spoke to DP and he says we need to say to him that he chose to come here and live with us as a family not a hotel conveniently located next to the school he wanted to go to and so he must make an effort to join in. I'm not sure this will make any difference.

He is now ours but that's easier to say than to make happen. Granny lives hours away and frankly he doesn't seem to miss her that much. THere were a few tearful phonecalls in the first week but apparently that has dropped off now.

I have DS and work freelance - i know he is a child and deserves unconditional love, but honestly I don't know how to build a relationship with him, he seems completely closed.

Have you tried talking to him? Not telling him how it's going to be but sitting down and discussing how you'd all like it to be? And actually listening to him?

I've read quite a few of your threads about this and I honestly don't remember reading the words 'so we all sat down and talked about expectations etc'.

Lay it out for him in plain English what you expect and ask him what he expects.

Respect is a two way street.

Tee I agree we haven't done that 'sit down and talk' thing since he moved in. I had a really nice conversation with him before he moved in when he was staying with us, when I said that things would be different and we would all need to adjust but that we were really happy to have him. I said things might appear 'harder' with us because in our family we all make a contribution but that we all wanted him to be happy.

I admit I wasn't specific. I didn't say, you'll have to do the odd job around the house etc.

He seemed to respond well and that continued after he moved in. We had a real honeymoon period I suppose. But now he is ok unless asked to do even the tiniest thing, like take his plate through to the kitchen. Last night I bought his favourite ice cream and asked him to come with me to buy fish and chips which is a little trip we've done once before together, got soaked in the rain, had a nice talk together, etc.

First he said he would come, then he said he didn't want to, he would rather look after DS while I went. I came back and he'd dumped DS in his room and gone back to his game (I was out about 15 minutes). For pudding there were no clean bowls so when he went to get his I said oh you'll have to wash a bowl up, he harrumphed and said he didn't want to, then got a salad bowl out the cupboard and went to use that. I went in and calmly said, hey DN, don't use that, just rinse one of those bowls. Cue big attitude, picking up bowl between finger and thumb, holding it under the tap and then going to his room and not reappearing all night till DP went to tell him it was time to switch the computer off and go to bed.

I have always spoken to him respectfully and nicely, to have fun and to engage with his interests, but frankly he treats me with disdain.

I'll try and get DP to sit down with us all together, but DN is likely to clam up. It's hard because he hasn't done anything massively wrong. I can't say, in this house we don't do x and y because he does things we ask him to without much fuss. He just doesn't seem to like us much.

Oh dear what a rant. I do see what needs doing it's just hard when you're in the middle of it.

Tee is just read your post again and I realise we haven't ever asked DN what he expects. What a simple thing. He might not say anything but at least it might make him think.

I know he is not yours, mamateur, and I know it is tough- but that won't make him less hormonal. In fact, being more unsettled, he will be worse.

You don't have to accept outright rudeness or disobedience, but moodiness is normal for a lad his age, it really is- that's what you took on when you took on a 12yo. Sorry, I know this sounds harsh: but you do admit that he is actually quite good and kind in many ways. What he cannot do is to suddenly not be 12, because you are not used to 12yos. It would be like expecting a 2yo not to have tantrums because you have not had time to get used to them from a baby.

They are infuriating creatures and imo you need to be quite strict with them (you are absolutely right to pull him up on his rudeness!), but you also need not to take it personally. Any more than you will take your ds' tantrums personally when he gets to age 2. Tee's suggestion is excellent, but even that will probably not stop his moodiness.

If you find it a struggle, you need to get some support for you. There is that ParentingLine, they are very good, they're in the phone book. Or maybe SS could point you in the way of some support.

TBH he sounds like a fairly normal 12yo to me. They don't get being nice and polite and the effect it has on others - they do just grunt and barge around when not holed up in their rooms.

As cory said you just keep going and eventually it will pay off - DS14 is just begining to show signs of the nice young man he will become but it is a hard slow process.

Teenagers are like toddlers - they need boundaries which have to be firm that they can push and push. They need consistency in routine, expectations etc. It is very hard and can be quite demoralizing but the effort will be worth it.

Perhaps you do need to sit down and explain what is expected from him as a member of your household. Be clear. We have a list of chores/behaviors expected on the fridge - serves as a useful reminder for what the bare minimum is and also anything above and beyond gets rewarded.

Thanks, I've calmed down a bit. He is a very sweet kid and we both really want him in our family. I just feel he's skating above it and I want to find a way of sort of dragging him into it. Kicking and screaming if necessary.

I just had a talk with DP and we're going to talk to him tonight, as casually as possible, and ask him what sort of things he would like to do - with us. DP has suggested wall climbing (there is a v good place nearby) and getting him a second-hand bike (we plan to get him one for his birthday) so they can cycle together. If we ask him what he expects I would put money on him mumbling he doesn't know, probably quite sulkily.

Does that seem a good way forward?

you need to instigate family meetings one a week, where he can give across his POV and contribute to decisions.

dinner at the table at same time everynight

you aren't going to bond with a kid you don't spend time with ( for whatever reason)

Yes, sounds fine, but you have to be prepared to accept that if he does mumble that he doesn't know, or if he doesn't want to do anything, then that is not a personal criticism of you, just very common behaviour at this age.

Sometimes, they need to be in a bit of a bubble of their own (as long as being polite obviously and doing a few chores). They can't be dragged into the family (though they can be dragged out on family outings or to auntie Flo's birthday ).

It is a very confusing age, they are no longer little children who are happy as long as you tickle them, but they haven't got the power to be independent adults and besides, they don't really know as yet what kind of an adult they want to be. Some really need to just go into themselves at this age.

I think it is a mistake to take it as a personal slight if they don't seem to be happy (though admit I do it myself with ds). Just carry on being kind and firm and take no rudeness, but accept that they may be misery guts for a few years because of hormones rather than because of anything you are doing wrong.

(remembering my mother's menopause- I honestly don't think there was anything we could have done; she didn't want to be cheered up by having things arranged for her).

And I do agree with the idea of weekly family meetings.

I have a 12 year old, what you have said sounds really familiar. It is nothing that you are doing wrong honest, he is just 12.

The thing with washing the dish,my DS did this the other day, he drove me mad. Water at full blast holding a tiny corner of his lunchbox in finger and thumb trying to flick the crumbs of without actually getting his hands or the box wet and wasting about a bathfull of water in the process. He never knows what he wants but it is never what I have to give him

Can I ask why were their plates in his room?
You sound like you need a shared interest - or he needs a hobby, something like scouts or a local football team to get him moving and ready made friends.

It sounds like he is just 12 years old and actually from what you have said, quite a nice 12 year old. The problem is that this is a VERY difficult age and you dn is going to struggle with it even more because of his circumstances.

I know he chose to live with you but he is still a child and he just wanted to get away from school. He won't have realised the real consequences of his decision, that he will be living with people he doesn't really know well and who don't really know him.

I really think you need to be ready for the teenage years. Most teenagers are infuriating some of the time even to the people who have loved them and known them since they were babies .

At the moment you don't have that history and wellspring of love to call on in the hard times and niether does he so it is bound to be more difficult than usual.

As others have said be very clear in your expectations and don't let him get away with outright rudeness but also modify your expectationsa bit. He is 12 and won't be much fun to be around a lot of the time.

One final thing to remember, is that some research has shown that teenagers's brains actually show physical changes during this time and that the areas of their brain that are actively changing are similar to those in toddlers. If you think about it teenagers and toddlers do have quite a bit in common compared to the middle years of childhool (4-11 years old)

Teenagars become more selfish, they suddenly need more sleep (but you can't put then ot bed early like toodlers), they are ofeten very self-absorbed, They have tantrums (storming off and slamming doors etc)

If you can try and rememeber that most of this is not personal and in fact not about you at all most of the time, it can be easier to cope with.

Good luck, you seem to be doing a fantastic job to me

Sounds like you are doing a really good job. I would only add, has he had any bereavement counselling? I was bereaved of one parent as a child - two would be horrific and I could imagine thinking 'I don't want to be part of your family, I want my own family and its not fair'

Lots and lots to answer here, I don't really know where to start.

I just had a call from the school to report a long catalogue of bad behaviour culminating in him shoving a TA today. I can hear his key in the door now, don't know what I'm going to say. We have an appt with the school tomorrow.

Sorry to hear things are going badly at school. Sounds like maybe he could do with a bit more external help.

If you are going to take him on day trips do it very soon. It won't be long (a year or two) until the idea of having (uncool) adults will him will mean that he won't be seen outside with you (I am fairly serious with this).

My son once said to me when I showed him something that I had bought that I thought was exceptionally cool,"Mum, you can never be cool whatever you do". That's because I am his Mum, or in your case an adult relative. When we went to parents evening I was given dire warning (by him) not to say anything embarassing. This seemed to start at the word "hello" when speaking to the teacher. i.e. everything I said would be agonising to him.

BTW, he's 19 now and lovely (at Uni).

That sounds like my ds, pippop. Because we are bilingual, he went through a phase of insisting that I must only speak Swedish when accompanying him in public places, "because if you speak English, people will understand what you say" (I ignored). Dd at her first Parents Evening gave me a long list of the teachers I must on no account ask to meet. This was not about them embarrassing her by any complaints (she was doing fine), it was about me not being allowed to embarrass her.

I ignored his "advice" about the teachers too. I also dressed carefully (none of my "embarassing" jewellery for example).

Oh dear. I really feel like I've been through the mill tonight. DN is in his room, skulking. I will call and ask him if he wants dinner. I actually bought, at his request, the old el paso fajita kit for dinner. I really had to swallow my pride at the checkout as I consider myself a pretty good cook and capable of mixing a few spices... It's the last thing we want to eat on our own!

I just had a long conversation with DP (in the park out of earshot). It was pretty heated. I need him to step up. He thinks the best way of building his self-esteem is via the academic route, making him work harder and be proud of himself. I just don't see this working, at least not in isolation. I want him to spend happy time with DP who he absolutely adores. I think he messes around in class because playing the clown gets him the admiration of his classmates

DP is the only father figure he has.

Actually I have just had an idea because I know a youth worker via my brother, who works with and fosters troubled teens, who might talk to DP. Maybe he will believe someone else.

Trusting mumsnet will still be around tomorrow...