Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Parenting

For free parenting resources please check out the Early Years Alliance's Family Corner.

Unconditional parenting

12 replies

otchayaniye · 26/09/2010 12:39

Yes, it's a naff descriptor. But I've read the books and his comments articulate what I've felt as my now 23 month old daughter grows into toddlerhood. I don't know anyone in real life who has read this, or follows this philosophy and any attempt to bring it up elsewhere has met with scorn and derision.

I had an epiphany a while back, with a friend at a playgroup and she was constantly -- I mean unremittingly barking and shouting orders and screeching 'nice sharing, good girl, good good girl, you share nicely' 'I'll give you a sticker' for a couple of hours. It was depressing, and wearing and you could tell her 20 month daughter totally had the measure of her mum, even then. I just knew at that moment that I didn't want to go down the 'praise normal/sensible behaviour to the utmost to get them to do more of it' route.

So, I appreciate that there isn't a method as such, no techniques (a frequent criticism levelled at Alfie Kohn), but I wonder how you deal with the following:

Any tantrums once they are underway. You know, when you can't reason and they don't want holding.

Praise (where due) and encouragement

Dealing with unruliness in social situations (restaurants etc)

How do you deal with the fact that school/other people your children come into contact with do things very differently?

How do you deal with criticism from people who think you are being precious/lazy/hippyish if the subject comes up?

Thanks, I've read the a good few threads on here about it, but would love to hear more from people that walk the walk.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
lecce · 26/09/2010 20:11

That book made so much sense to me. My epiphany was a friend poised over her 3 year old putting some coke in his cup every time he ate a mouthful of fishcake; she turned to me and said, "bribery is great - works every time," and I decided I really didn't want to do that. I don't mean to be sneery, I'm not nearly as patient as I should be but I'm very pleased I read that book as it is a good alternative.

With tantrums I do a mixture of stuff - distraction works well, as dors turning chores into a game. What I have found works well with ds1 (3.6) is granting his wish in fantasy which I read in httsykwl. It's great, an example from today: at the park he decided he wanted to go on a boat - there is a pond but no boats. Whining began, increased to crying/screamig very quickly as my initial reaction was to snap, "Don't be silly," etc. Then I said, "I bet you wish there was a great big pirate ship and we could sail all the way home on it..." Crying stops, he siffles "yes" and is soon chatting about something else. DH says it just baffles him - whatever- it works 90% of the time.

I do slip into "good boy" and it does annoy me as it's so knee-jerk. I just try to follow it up with an explanation/description of why it was good.

I don't care what anyone else thinks and luckily I don't know anyone who tells me outright they don't agree. At school things will be a bit different but I suppose I hope I'm bringing him up to be secure and confident and this will make him make good choices as he gets older. Nursery have given him some rewards for tidying up etc but I don't worry as he's only there 15 hours a week and he has to learn about different systems etc.

lecce · 26/09/2010 20:12

Sorry about typos, I am feeding ds2 to sleep in the dark!

mollymawk · 26/09/2010 20:28

I can't help that much as I only sort-of follow this approach - I have 3 DCs and do resort to bribery and corruption in times of need!

However, in answer to some of your questions:

Re the tantrums, I normally just wait. Nearby if possible but sometimes I have lots else to do, so I do that and check back occasionally to see if she has calmed down (usally this is DD who is 2.4). Eventually she calms down enough to say "I want a cuddle" so then I can cuddle her.

Social situations - threats and bribery normally. For DS1 aged 7 reasoning and explanation has worked for a few years now but DS2 aged 5 is terminally stubborn so this rarely works.

It doesn't seem to matter that school do things differently - the DCs seem to deal with whatever approach they are faced with in different environments.

I do say they have done well at something if they have but I just try to focus it on specific discussion of what they have done and how it makes them feel, if I can. I think the key is not making them think I like them better for it.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

BertieBotts · 26/09/2010 21:02

Lots of stuff in the archives for it if you do a search for "unconditional parenting" or "alfie kohn" :)

I'm always linking this on here but my friend's website (just a collection of thoughts really, nothing fancy, nothing for sale) has got a section on gentle discipline (UP principles included) and she seems to have covered almost every angle really succinctly. Link here.

I think the thing about UP is it isn't a discipline technique in itself, it's a set of principles by which the author believes discipline should be conducted. There are lots of techniques which fit in with the UP philosophy, they just take more finding and creative thinking. A formulaic "system" isn't going to work with it.

But yes, on to your questions. DS is 2 next week, if that's relevant.

Tantrums: If I haven't managed to head it off and he doesn't want holding then I let him ride it out and carry on with what I was doing. So not ignoring specifically, but not mithering him either, and making myself available so that when he has finished he can come up for a hug and/or a chat if he wants to.

Praise: I try to follow his lead. If he seems pleased with himself I join in and say "Wow, that is a big tower!" or whatever, but I don't say "Well done!" every time he puts in a jigsaw piece correctly. I read this somewhere and it made sense to me. If he does something like helps me tidy up I say "thank you DS, that's really helpful," rather than "good boy" (although I do slip into good boy etc as well). Encouragement, I suppose he's a bit young yet, but occasionally he will say something like "Doesn't work" with a jigsaw piece which he's got nearly right and I'll say "Try again, how about this way, let's turn it round" etc. He knows the word for help and will ask for it if he wants it.

Unruliness in social situations - depends what it is. If he is not bothering anyone else - e.g. the other night we went out for dinner at a pub and he kept putting his foot (no shoes) on the table. I tried moving it off but he wouldn't keep it down so we ignored it in the end. When he is older he can understand that certain places have different rules and if you want to go to these places you need to abide by them.

If bothering other people then it is the same as any other dangerous or destructive behaviour. Distraction, reasoning, explanation, depending on ages. Explanation beforehand of the way they are expected to behave in the situation, and prior planning as well. Think about whether something is expecting too much from a child of that age and whether there is a compromise situation, e.g. spending the morning outdoors if the afternoon is going to be sitting still. Last resort is removal from the situation entirely. Sometimes things are necessary - leaving would not be a punishment; though the child might be upset by it, they also might not. There is no need to impose a further "sanction" either way, which is where the difference lies. TBH I think this is Kohn's weakest point. Sometimes it is necessary to do something which might upset your child, just like you might upset a friend by being honest with them about something. You can do it respectfully - give warnings, explain why, and validate feelings "I know it's disappointing when you have to stop what you are doing."

School etc - have not come across school yet, so not sure. Other caregivers I have had a degree of choice and been able to choose a childminder who is similar in approach, and I think DS will probably go to the local Montessori pre-school so that is similar too. The biggest difference is when DS goes to his Dad's (we are not together) and I'm not sure what his approach is but I suspect it's very different from mine. If I have learned one thing from this and various talks I've had etc it's that children are very adaptable and learn very quickly to switch between one set of rules and another, especially if you stay consistent with yourself. You are his main caregiver, so yours will be the defining factor, I would have thought. I tend (or I try!) not to worry about it too much.

Haven't had criticism yet(!) touch wood! Only on online forums etc, where I can always write out a long reply. Usually I find people object on some ridiculous level like "Oh, UP means not disciplining at all!" which isn't true, so I just try to explain how it does work. It is difficult to explain though, especially in one sentence. The main difficulty is that most discipline strategies can be explained in one sentence. E.g. "When he acts up he goes on the naughty step for three minutes" or "When he is good he gets a sticker. When he gets ten stickers he gets a prize." whereas this isn't easy to explain like that because each situation is dealt with as it comes up. It's not one size fits all. (But that's what I like about it!)

Sorry this is so long, my posts on this subject always are!

lecce · 26/09/2010 21:04

BTW, have just read back and wanted to clarify that dh thinks the 'granting wishes...' thing baffles ds, not dh! It is funny as ds can be in full-flow screaming mode and I start babbling, "bet you wish there was a giant chocolate rabbit hopping all over the table and you were gobbling it up..." or something and, it's true, ds does look baffled but nearly always stops screaming!

BertieBotts · 26/09/2010 21:10

Oh and I forgot this about encouragement, DS doesn't tend to need much encouragement, this could be his personality, or it could be that I've always followed the mantra that wherever possible I should let him do things for himself. So when he was little and got frustrated with his toys I'd swoop in and help, and then I realised that it was actually okay if he got frustrated and if I just let him get on with it he'd work it out by himself. As I mentioned I taught him the word for help and he now asks for it if he needs it which is good as I don't have to half hover, wondering if he's getting too frustrated with it.

You don't need to be afraid of "bad" feelings like disappointment or anger or frustration, obviously you wouldn't want to cause them on purpose, but letting them experience the feeling, giving them the word for it and then showing them how to deal with it appropriately is much more helpful than just trying to avoid it altogether.

BertieBotts · 26/09/2010 21:11

Lecce, how old was DS when you started the giving wishes thing? And roughly what was his language like at that stage (if you can remember!) I'd like to use it with DS but at the moment if you mention a biscuit he thinks he's getting a biscuit, so I wouldn't want to confuse him and make him more frustrated.

lecce · 26/09/2010 21:18

I've been doing it for quite a while now, ds was about 2.5. His language skills have been excellent from quite early on and were very well-developed when I started this strategy. I only read these books after having ds2, which was when I took my eye off the ball with ds1 and felt I needed some help.

I see your point, I think their langauge skill do need to be good for this to work, partly just so they don't get confused, as you mention, but also because they can join in with it. If I start it before ds gets to melt-down stage he will join in with me and elaborate on the fantasy and that's cute and defuses the situation!

otchayaniye · 26/09/2010 21:26

Many many thanks, people, and I'm grateful BertieBotts for the thoughtful replies. I too realise this is a 'state of mind' rather than a set of tools and I guess

I'm very relaxed about my child doing things other people would be driven mad by but at the same time am strongly driven not to neglect other people's feelings.

I am also non negotiable when it comes to toothbrushing. Sorry, she has to deal with that and no amount of explaining/joking/distracting stops her shouting about it.

Can I ask how you deal with bedtimes? I had two years of breastfeeding to sleep every 2 hours (co-slept without husband in bed Shock and she's now in her own child's bed and more or less sleeps through. I am at my worst when wrangling her to bed after a day's work and couldn't cope with letting her run about until she wanted to go to bed. So yes, I have to exert some non-negotiable control there I guess.

My husband has read the book too -- I think in some ways he's even more receptive. And he's joint care-giver (in fact he only works two night shifts a week, while I work three days so in fact he's around more for her than me.

My daughter has been fully conversational for ages but I don't know if this helps and I should explain/fantasise more?

OP posts:
lecce · 26/09/2010 21:44

Can't seem to stay off this thread tonight and I should be working now!

Bedtimes, like you I bf and co-slept part of the night with ds1 until he was 2 (still there with ds2). However, despite this we did, and still do, have a bedtime routine which means the first part of the night has always gone well. I'm sure you have this anyway. On nights when he resists I try to build in as much choice as I can - the order of toothbrushing/weeing, the flannel he uses etc etc.

I also find, like nearly everyone else, that if he has had a particularly busy day, bedtime is more tricky than usual so I have a glass of wine mentally prepare myself, make sure it's as early as I can get away with and try to be cheerful and quick about it. I certainly wouldn't let him run around for as long as he liked as, apart from the effect on me, it wouldn't be fair on him. He actually enjoys the whole bedtime thing once it gets underway.

I don't think you should feel bad about certain things being non-negotiable, they are all for her benefit not just you wanting to be the boss. That is what I wanted to avoid, the attitude, almost gleeful in some people, that they are 'the boss' and their children have to 'be told' all the time. Obviously, avoiding this doesn't mean you ignore stuff that is essential, like teeth-cleaning.

Explaining/fantasising are good, but you know better than anyone if you should do them more with your dd. If she seems receptive then yes, there's no harm in trying, unless it 'winds her up' it's not going to do any harm.

BertieBotts · 26/09/2010 21:49

Explaining really helps. Someone said to me on a thread the other day (I think it came from Aitch originally) that explaining helps with the "WTF-ness" of being a toddler, which I thought was a really good description!

I am not too good with bedtime myself and tend to relax over it a bit too much, probably. But there were a couple of interesting suggestions at the end of The No Cry Sleep Solution which were for 2 years+, things like writing a book with your child to mark the end of co-sleeping, showing their transition from being in your tummy, to sleeping in the hospital cot, then into mummy & daddy's bed, also showing things like kicking legs/crawling/walking, drinking milk/eating with a spoon/feeding themselves at each stage, to show the growing up transition, ending with a picture of a big girl in a big girl's bed.

There is a whole separate book "The no cry sleep solution for toddlers" and I imagine that would have some really good suggestions.

BertieBotts · 26/09/2010 21:52

And thanks lecce :) It makes sense that it would work better when DS can join in. Maybe I will try it out when he's not wound up to see how receptive he is to it.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread