Running out of ideas - DD aged 5 is driving me potty

[clemetteattlee]

I am writing here in the hope that someone can give me some new ideas on managing DD's behaviour.
She is bright, funny, affectionate and loving ... but also precocious, defiant and increasingly "brattish". Her behaviour started to deteriorate before she started school (she started in January) but I was hoping that with a few weeks at home this summer she would settle down; sadly it is getting more tricky each day.
She starts every day by asking what we are doing and then complaining loudly/crying if they are things she doesn't want to do. Even if we do something she wants to do she starts complaining within minutes and asking for snacks and drinks and then demanding to do something else. DS (2.5) has been having some days in nursery this summer so DD and I can have one-on-one time but even when I take her out for a special day she starts creating a fuss or demanding more and more.

We don't give in to her every whim, and reward good behaviour effusively. I do tell her off when she is naughty (we get lots of lying, or complete disregard for what we have asked her to do, or when we say no). Her response to us telling her off is to say something rude to me and then go upstairs and pack her bags (to move across the road to her friend's!!).

I think our problem is we struggle to find "consequences". She has no interest in possessions so removing things doesn't work. What she really cares about is seeing her friends, but often when they are coming over it is either so their mums can go to work (so I can't suddenly say "I'm sorry, DD can't see X today") or it is because families are getting together and everyone would miss out if I cancelled as a consequence for DD's behaviour.

What is worrying me though, is that the daily grind of trying to manage her every day is causing me to deal with things in a way I vowed never to - today I told her that I didn't want to speak to her because her behaviour was upsetting me too much. I vowed that I would never use emotional coldness as a sanction, yet I find myself either doing that, or ranting reduntantly about why she can't "just be good".

So - I need help, please.

I could have written this myself. It feels to me sometimes if all the joy of life is being sucked out of me because of the constant wanting, whingeing, shouting, meltdowns, argument instigating over every little thing. The whole of my day seems to be a war of attrition. I try and do all the 'right' things...stay calm, etc but tbh we are all human and sometimes I've done things similar to you sadly and I hate myself for it. EG, last week it's almost as if the moment he got out of bed he wanted to pick a fight and the whole morning was one of him whinging. After dinner i put dd (18mths) into her cot for a nap and I felt so drained I just wanted 5 mins peace. DS (3.9) wasn't having this and kept on and on at me. I told him to go away and leave me alone...to which he said "you are not my mummy...I want Auntie Sally to be my mummy". I decided to ignore this but he kept on and on all afternoon being, quite frankly, really spiteful. Where do they get this from? By the end of the day, I went upstairs and burst into tears...he followed me and I turned around and told him I couldn't go on and that I would pack his bags for him. I felt so cruel...but do you know we are only human. He is a good kid really but sometimes I wished I'd gone back to work rather than stayed at home...it feels like an isolating, thankless task sometimes. So, basically it's just to say you are not alone...it's bloomin hard work. The only thing I would add though is that I have been put on anti-ds by my GP which has helped a little...if you are beginning to feel ground down maybe see your GP for a chat? Take care...you are not alone.

The first thing that pops up from your post to me is that you are trying to manage your 5yo DD.

You must try and involve her in the decisions about what happens in the day - she's old enough now to have some ideas herself as to what she'd like to do.

Have a meeting and listen to what she says and write her suggestions down, than give your own suggestions. Write up the minutes. Hang it on the wall.

You'll be teaching her how to listen, how to speak and how to compromise.

I have a 6 yo who sounds as independent as your DD, and this method worked wonders for us.

Stop trying to manage her, and start involving her in what's going on in her life and yours.
Go for a win win.

Thank you for your reply rubadub - it's sometimes a bit shit this job isn't it?

zazen - I am really interested in your approach. Generally our days (these holidays - I am normally a WOHM) are one big round of things that DD likes to do. This morning she wanted to make popcorn and watch a DVD with me. We did and then after twenty minutes she declared herself bored. She then asked to go to the library, which we did, and then she had a friend around for the afternoon (who she played with for about thirty minutes and then started having a meltdown about wanting snacks). At the end of all of this I said we needed to nip to the supermarket to pick up some bits and she started complaining that we never do fun things!!

However, I suppose I organise the stuff for her to do, but she rarely chooses for herself what she wants to do. In your case, if your DD has chosen to do something, and then gets bored/starts complaining after ten minutes, what do you do?

Hmm, maybe a bit more boredom?

Can you organise a very dull day for her - a looonng round of household chores to be done with you (choice: make the beds first or match up all the jars to their lids?) plus a dull walk in the morning and a different, equally dull walk in the afternoon (choice: we can either go towards the cemetery or past the A-road flyover?) Possibly writing a thank-you letter to a grandparent in the late afternoon? As a huge treat, a very boring story, read in a monotone, after her bath?

I love the sound of zazen's approach and would use it the NEXT day, but I would go the opposite way first - I think that 5year olds can very easily be overwhelmed with choices and overstimulated. The advantage of this boring day is that, although it will be painfully dull for you too, at least you will feel at the end of it that you have achieved some housework and exercise! If she has a tantrum over the dull choices, choose for her, walk away and start the task. If she turns on the telly instead, turn it off again and repeat until she has a tantrum or comes along with you. If she moans for snacks, just say 'Snack at 10.30, that's two hours away' and keep saying it until it actually is 10.30.

It's summer holidays - the treat is that she has more time with you, not that she is entertained 100% of the time.

I really should do the same with ds...

Is it possible that she is getting too much interaction with you and too many things to do? Perhaps because you ARE being such an ace and loving and caring mum, it's almost 'teaching' her to get onto this endless treadmill of demanding, doing, then demanding again?

Does she play well independently? Do you have days when you are doing stuff for you and she has to amuse herself for most of the day? I think this could be really healthy actually; she does need to amuse herself and get herself out of her 'bored' moments in order to get the skills to keep herself happy; because when it comes down to it, it's not actually your job to be chief entertainer and it will be very good for her to have these skills throughout her childhood.

I also think that you are missing a trick if you don't use a bit of emotional coolness now and again, it's one of the very best strategies in my opinion for showing children the consequences; mum does not want to spend time with people who are spoiled and nasty to her - and you can show that by a withdrawal of your normal warmth and approval. I really don't think there's anything wrong with that and it is simply teaching her the real life effects of being nasty to people; it would be more unkind in my view to not let her experience that feeling. I'm not suggesting emotional blackmail or sending to coventry or anything long lasting of course.

I also think that you must cancel get togethers even if it puts other family or friends out a bit and is inconvenient. Otherwise, there are almost no consequences to her actions, are there? Obviously this would be a very last resort, not something you would do every time she was a bit bolshy. But I think you do have to prioritise consequences above other things if you really want to address stuff.

Thanks for the further replies.
She has NEVER played independently. She doesn't really like toys and has always wanted other people to play with since she was a tiny tot. As a result she seeks a lot of external stimulation.
On reflection I can see the fact that she has something lovely to do every day means that she never gets chance to have any down time, and has started to take the lovely things very much for granted.

I too would cancel her playdates, even if it is inconvenient for the other people. You can't make yourself miserable and not enjoy your dd just so other people have someone to look after their children.

My children are not allowed to ask for food as it was driving me dotty. The constant demands and whining. I do of course feed them at meal times. It took a while but they are used to it now.

Another thing I have done is I bought an egg timer that I only use for 'no questions' time Sometimes when we get home from school or swimming or whatever I set it for 10 minutes and they are not to ask me any questions until the bell goes. They can talk to me, but not ask me for anything. It keeps me sane while I get my shoes off and the kettle on.

My dd1 is six and she doesn't really play with toys and is not materialistic. It took me ages to adjust my thinking about what she likes to do and stop buying her playmobil castles. She values different things like art things and music. She can draw or dance around for ages by herself but she can't play with a Barbie for a minute by herself.

Thank you. You say your Dd is 6, how old is your other child? My two are five and two and at such different stages that I lurch from one to the other, dealing with both toddler tantrums and little girl stroppiness ineffectively!

Three and she is as materialistic as they come. I once took all of her toys away for a whole weekend for pushing someone off the climbing frame. It worked a treat and she will never do that again. She has a 'currency' so it is easier to know what to do with her.

That sounds similar to my DS. "Putting things on the shelf" works wonders with him; I used to try it with DD when she was smaller and she would just say "oh well, I have loads of other stuff". (She has always been spirited!!)
What sort of consequences do you use for your DD?

you sound like a lovely mum OP. They don't appreciate how lucky they are, these bratty 5 year olds with lovely mums (I have a dd like that too....)

My dd is quite similar to yours in a lot of ways. We do spend a lot of time and effort on managing her behaviour but I don't stress about it (though dh does - he's always saying in a perplexed sort of way 'She's never satisfied! You give her what she wants and she always wants one more thing!')
I am quite clear in my mind that having lovely one-to-one time with Mummy is dependent on good behaviour, and this is not the same as love being dependent on good behaviour, which it very much is not and should not be. You can be emotionally warm but at the same time firm - you can say to her 'DD, I love you very much but at the moment your behaviour is terrible and I am not prepared to have you in the same room as me while you keep pulling at my clothes/ I am not going to take you to the park again if you keep whining' etc.

Do you use time out? I use it for serious bad behaviour. It might work if taking toys away doesn't.

One thing we found is that having once shown her you are prepared to follow through on certain things you only have to use it once because then the threat becomes more effective. We once had a day out when we told dd that if she carried on behaving as she was, she wouldn't get an ice cream. She carried on, dh and I looked at each other in horror thinking 'We've really got to follow through now!' and we sat in the car and everyone except her had an ice cream! So now she knows we mean it.

We do deals clemetteattlee.

If we are going shopping, we stop off on the way for 10 minutes to the playground. It's only fair - she doesn't really enjoy shopping and I can remind her that we've done something for her, so now it's suck it up time around the grocery shop..

If DD gets bored of doing something, we insist she clears it up herself before she can do anything else, as she might want to use it again, and if it's all over the place bits can get missing and then she won't be able to play with it fully, so it makes sense you know.

I never take it personally if she's bored... just strike one of her activities off the list for the day.. we don't immediately jump to the next thing.

My Dd is quite happy to lie upside down, hanging off the sofa and sing to herself though...
We have quite a lot of books as well and CDs of books languages etc... she can put them on herself.

We have quite a lot of down time actually - so structured boredom time (IYKWIM) for lying on the floor, crawling under the tables etc is quite common in our house.

I agree sethstarkaddersmum, carrying through on things is so important - it creates a safe zone for them. They know where they are and push buttons a lot less.

Have you had tried having a proper conversation with her about how her behaviour is perceived?

My DD1 (4) tends to do the same thing as your DD, but I find she normally understands when I remind her of a conversation we had about how it is annoying to other people when e.g. we go to the zoo to look at animals, but she keeps asking to go to the zoo's play ground, have an ice cream, being told a story etc. I think sometimes it's also a question of getting them to concentrate on one thing at a time for more than 5 minutes?

And I would go crazy if DD'a couldn't play on their own. Could you maybe teach her to play on her own, e.g. by starting off with a role play with Lego figures, dressing up, drawing or something and then announce that you have to go and do some chore?

Hope it gets better for you!

Thanks everyone for their replies. She has been in a brilliant mood all day today, and I have been calmer so it has been much better.
I have definitely taken on board the fact that she needs more down time - why would she appreciate "treats" if every day is one big round of experiences, visits and outings?

I am hoping to keep next week pretty clear for her and we shall see of it helps.
Thanks again.