Can being clever be a reason for bad behaviour?

[GooseyLoosey]

Question says it all really.

I am told that particularly clever children often have particularly challenging behaviour. Is their intelligence an acceptable reason for this or is it merely an excuse.

Clever children can present as arrogant and oblivious to the needs of others, and the social conventions that the rest of us use. They are also a lot more trouble when they are bored or cross as they use the intelligence to discover mischief, blind spots and rudeness in a very inventive way.
It can be a reason, but not an excuse.
The answer is to teach them, every time there's a problem. They are intelligent enough to understand what you are talking about, if your argument makes sense and is based in logic.

I think it can be if they're bored and frustrated but it's not really an excuse. I was a very clever/precocious child and literally never had a tantrum or anything

It's not an excuse, but yes, I do think bright children can seem rude and disobedient. They get bored more easily, question authority more readily and are generally tougher little cookies to deal with.

Anyone, adults and children alike, can be naughty when bored and frustrated. Clever children often don't follow instructions without reasonable explanation or do things willingly that they feel are beneath them. They don't necessarily have tantrums though - they can also just withdraw.

Did you have an audience for your precocity MMM? People who listened to you and encouraged you? Or teased you and called you freak or ignored you because you were more than they could cope with?

Goblinchild - you could be describing my son. An ed psych recently told us that the majority of his problems were down to him being very clever. I just don't see how it can be - how can intelligence make you oblivious to social conventions (which ds is - completely)?

Because a lot of highly intelligent individuals don't have an emotional maturity to match.
Social conventions often don't make sense unless unpicked and explained, and they get in the way if you are a very motivated and logical person.

yes goblinchild, my parents were very nurturing of my brain got lots of praise for being clever etc, well supported/extended in school. I was very lucky, going by some of the threads I read on MN!

I find that a lot of what adults say makes really no sense if you approach it from a logical angle. Children who are very logical and literal often struggle with instruction or even discipline which makes no sense. Also, we often ask children to do things for which they can see no logical reason unless we exlpain it, such as getting dressed now: they are already dressed in pyjamas, which are warm and comfortable, and they like them because they have dinosaurs on. Why shouldn't they wear them for a little longer?

That is maybe not the most useful example

I am trying to think of examples that I have had with my own DS...

That's a lovely thing to read.
It's the make or break difference with many of the very able, quirky children and adults I've met. Often the difference in their happiness and mental stability is directly linked to how well their immediate families cope.
You don't have to be as clever, you just have to love them and accept them.

Interesting
DS1 fits this category - constantly questioning the rules/authority/instructions/social norms

I love his questioning and critical thinking in many ways but it doesn't make life a smooth ride.

Interesting and challenging and unexpected are never an easy ride. However, it is never boring, mundane or predictable.

So, none of you think that it is just an excuse. That's interesting.

Is there a way though to get the wider world to love and accept them rather than them always being seen as a disruptive child? Or do you have to teach them to meet the wider world on its terms? Of so, how?

There really isn't an easy answer GooseyLoosey, I wish there were. It's a lifelong learning task, and you will spend a lot of time being proud of them and delighted, and despairing and wondering why the world is so intolerant of difference.
And why your very able child, teenager, adult can see and understand things beyond your comprehension but still doesn't get why something they did or didn't do was socially unacceptable.
You are not alone in this, there are others around so when you need to yell or share a good thing, there will be those that know exactly what you mean. Like me, as a parent and as a teacher. Goblin TwoHats.

They have to learn to fit into the conventions of the world - that there are times to question the way things are done and why, and times to keep those thoughts to themselves. This is important through their lives, and you don't do them any favours whatsoever by not helping them to learn this.

Agreed, they have to live in the world and need the skills for that.

CMOT - I agree of course that they need to learn the conventions of the world, its just that the world seems so very unsympathetic to the fact that they need to learn - that things are not intuitive for them. No one shouts at the child who struggles to read, but the child who struggles to get social norms is always treated as the naughty child. I have even started to wonder myself if this is the case.

Goblin - are you speaking from personal experience as a parent as well as a teacher? If so, did you manage to get your child to conform?

'but the child who struggles to get social norms is always treated as the naughty child.'
Not in my school, or the educational establishments my family have been involved with. The trouble has been with others in the playground, outside school, parents of other children, packs of 'normal' children targeting difference.
It's got a lot easier since mine hit their teens. OH just lives in a highly academic world, so PFN doesn't register as an issue.

I also think that clever children can be challenging but that's because either they get bored easily and have worked out that being challenging gets attention or they have a very IQ but low emotional intelligence.

They are clever, therefore they can learn that sometimes things do not go their way and their are social rule which they are not exempt from by virtue of being intelligent. Sometimes I think the earlier that children learn this the better they will get on.

IMO it's important not to link academics/intelligence with behaviour, which is how it becomes an excuse. They are two completely separate things and TBH even if a child is disruptive and clever they are still disruptive. There's no getting past that fact. Once they've learnt not to be disruptive then the world can appreciate them for being clever.

And just to comment on the last few posts I agree it is very often other children who pick up on the disruptive element rather than the clever one.

Some teachers do, sadly, take against a child who is acting up because they're bored (which is because they're clever and the work is too easy) but it's the peer-peer relationships which suffer most IMO.

DD is gifted, OH is very clever and Aspie. DS is Aspie and academically average. I'm the one wearing the label of "Emotionally Mature'
DD copes, but has had problems in the past. She needed logical reasons for 'why' and the fact that our household is unconventional gave her a place to be herself. She'd 'put on the face that she keeps in a jar by the door' as she left. That's why I asked MMM if her family listened and supported.
OH doesn't give a stuff about other people's conventions and never has.
DS is the one who is working towards coping, and he needs everything explaining and spelling out as it's a social communication disorder.
It all works fairly well for us.

Worth watching: www.channel4.com/programmes/child-genius

Certainly for one of them a bit of discipline wouldn't have gone astray , but stimulating them and explaining things also seemed to help. Indulging didn't for the one I'm thinking of - clever does not equal mature!
I was a precocious child and was best behaved when I didn't feel patronised or that adults were covering up their own mistakes/lack of logic/inconsistency by telling me off or getting cross at me for pointing it out (which happened often).

The adults who spoke to me with respect for my intelligence were the ones I gave respect to in return, as were the ones who took the time to engage with me, extend me etc.

The ones who patronised me or took their insecurity out on me got rotten behaviour back. But then so did the ones who were overly impressed - that wasn't good either (I was a cocky little bugger).

Case in point - a teacher made a mistake on the blackboard when I was about 10, I pointed it out, she disagreed, I wouldn't let it drop (she had definitely made a mistake) - so instead of accepting the error, she pulled me out of the class and gave me a talking to about my attitude which she decided must be based on 'problems at home', despite my repeated explanations that it was simply that she'd made a mistake and I was pointing it out. I thought I was helping. I don't think I realised that the teacher wouldn't have wanted to have her error pointed out by a ten year old in front of a whole class. It just didn't occur to me and I felt bewildered and unfairly treated precisely because I was clever enough to see the mistake, but not mature enough to manage my reaction to it.

I agree with a lot of the posts so far... Bad behaviour in particularly bright children is often borne out of boredom and frustration at not being challenged. It's obviosuly hard for young children to articulate this frustration and so it comes out in bad behaviour.

Often the best soultion is to find more challenging and stimulating activities for them to do.

Bongo, I give merit marks to children that spot an error I've made and point it out.
If it's not an error, I work through why they thought it was. Takes a few seconds and encourages them not to be sheep. whilst learning how to make a point without being rude ad stroppy.