no idea how to deal with my 5yo any more

[vmcd28]

My DS, who was 5 in March, is going through a phase that is driving me mad.
an example of his behaviour would prob be the best place to start.
Last night, at 6:30pm, we were at Next ordering some furniture. The whole time we were there (1.25 hrs), he ran about, screeched, made faces and noises, and completely ignored anything we asked him to do.
Me and DS were sitting on a settee waiting for DH to come back with colour swatches. DS Kept bouncing on the settee. I said, "Listen, you need to sit nicely, cos this isnt our settee, and we dont want to damage it..." etc etc. He smiled at me and made a face. He did some more bouncing 10 seconds later. I asked him again to stop doing it. I also asked why he was doing it when I'd asked him not to. He said, "I dont know." Kept doing it. Cue me getting annoyed. "Stop it, please. I dont want to ask you again." Another smirk (note - not in an evil way, just like he was going to laugh).
This kind of thing went on and on...and on.
We all left the shop annoyed and irritated.
So this happens all the time - he doesnt seem to care when he's asked to do/stop doing something, and when it winds us up completely he still doesnt care.
When he's good, he's perfect, he's very loving and is excited about the new baby (I'm 21w).

But when he goes through one of these moods, the only thing that seems to make any difference to him - and I hate to admit it - is a smacked bum.
Please help me see how else to deal with this.

thanks, all x

PS he starts school in August, so I think some of this is complete boredom...

Well I think you could start by not expecting a 5yr old to sit still and be sensible for 1.25h! My generally well-behaved 6yr old couldn't do that. He'd be restless and fidgiting.

Do you think perhaps you're expecting too much? At 5 he should be able to sit still and concentrate for a maximum of 15min though outside of a school/nursery setting this is usually a max of 10min.

You talk about him winding you up and not caring but he's 5; that's what they do.

And please, please don't smack him because he is unable to behave like an adult.

I think you need to stand back and think about what is normal behaviour for a 5yr old. If he still appears hard work (by 5yr old standards) then try a star chart. But please stop smacking him.

Hmmmm, to be fair, that was just one example, and the fidgeting was early on in the evening. The 1.25 hrs was constant from the moment we got there, despite explaining what we expected from him.

Yes, I probably expected too much by the end of the shopping trip last night, but no, I dont expect too much every single time I ask him not to do something.

I know 5yos won't behave like adults, but you have got the wrong end of the stick if you think that is my reasoning for giving him an occasional smack.
The star chart didnt work cos he didnt care when he didnt get a star for something. If a star was removed, he'd just shout SORRY, then get very very angry about it, even when I'd explained why this had happened.

Thanks for your comments, really. But, tbh, I wanted some advice, not to be judged on my intelligence levels.

And for the record, the smacking is very very occasional, it's not a habitual thing - and is always always a last resort.

PS My point, really, is that he doesnt care when he a) gets asked (not) to do something and b) he smirks and laughs when I get angry.
To me, it seems odd, cos when I was that age, if I got a row I'd have been upset and apologetic.

Well to be fair, I can only judge on the information you gave me. In your OP you say his behaviour is unreasonable whilst also talking about how exasperated you were that he caould not behave on an evening shopping trip lasting over an hour!

I am not at all making judgments on your level of intelligence. I just disagree that smacking is an appropriate discipline nor do I think it works. And I did offer advice by suggesting the star chart.

Maybe he's laughing because he's awkward or embarrassed. Maybe he's nervous. Maybe (very likely) he's just immature. 5yr old boys very often are and held up against the behaviour of 5yr old girls (yourself) the differences can be startling. I have taught Reception and honestly, his behaviour just seems typical to me.

Maybe try a quick/short term reward system. So tell him face to face that you'd like him to do something(or not) and if he does(not) he can have...The first few times it has to be something he can easily do such as not hit or not knock something over. Then he will get the reward and enjoy the feeling and lots of praise he gets from you.

He just sounds like a very exhuberant, fidgity, slightly immature, normal 5yr old.
Oh and try not to drag him shopping at 6.30 when he should be having bath/story/down time and cuddles at home. If this was a one off then fine, sometimes these things are necessary but when they are you need to expect behaviour to be at its worse. Good luck.

my advice to you is to alter your expectations of your child. his behaviour sounds pretty normal to me. sorry, i know its hard

Thanks for your comments. I have tried the quick reward thing. again, I just feel as if I'm banging my head off the wall by the end of it all, when it doesnt work. It always turns into a situation when he doesnt get something, and he just goes off his head and blames us, and doesnt understand why it's happened, no matter how it's explained to him.

I just dont know when it all changed - he used to do as we asked him to do. Not always, obviously, I am well aware he wont do this all the time. And the reward thing or naughty step worked well. But as I say, he just doesnt care now.

The shopping last night was a one-off, but I'm not really sure that 6:30pm unreasonable to expect him to be patient at all? He goes to bed at 8ish, earlier if possible, but he is usually still awake at 9:30 or 10pm, despite all our efforts to change things. And I know my own DS - he's not tired at 6:30pm, so I really dont think I was asking too much as a one-off.

As an aside, to still be awake at 10pm at 5yrs is quite late. Are you sure he's getting enough sleep if he's up at say, 7.30 for school?

Has his behaviour changed since he started Reception? I only ask because my Ds's did. They are trying to find they way/their place and they can become a little naughty. You just need to be firm and consistent with how you handle his behaviour.

-Do you expect the same thing in the same situation?
-Do you always handle his behaviour the same way? So, would he always get a smack for doing X for example?

I understand you are seeking advice but it's important to note that it's not just me who is saying his behaviour is normal for a 5yr old.

Children in my experience (3 kids and lookign at others) go through a "naughty" phase at about 5.

You don't quite seem to have got the idea of star charts. You never remove a star. You start by saying we are going to see how good you can be today, (you may say when you have x you can have a little prize, have the prizes ready, I used to wrap them). Then you make sure he gets 10 stars on the first day, so you hunt for ten occasions when he is being good. You give him lots of attention and stick on the star. When it is becoming easy for you to give him ten stars, you make it a bit harder to get a star. (There is nothing wrong btw in giving more than 10 stars in a day.)

But the whole point is to help you pay attention to him being good. So he doesn't have to be naughty to get your attention.

Being naughty needs to mean losing your attention.

With my DC if they were misbehaving in a shop like that, I would have taken them outside to stand, being ignored waiting for Daddy. But I also wouldn't spend 1 1/4 hours in a shop at the end of the day.

I hope this helps a little. (My eldest two were nightmares at times btw.)

Thanks, mummytime. It was the supernanny advice that said to remove or withhold rewards for things when they didnt do it or "undid" they good things...

I possibly expect too much as I know he would have been great in a shop six months ago. Thanks for the advice about taking him outside for a bit - I hadnt thought of that last night, altho I have done this before.

archstanton, I know being awake at 10 is very late - as I said we have tried everything, including weeks of his bedtime being at 7pm! He gets lots of cuddles, a story, calming down time and warm milk before bed. He then (sometimes) gets soothing music on quietly when he's in his bed, but he still stays awake! This has become worse in the summer, cos he doesnt seem to believe it's bedtime when it's not pitch dark outside
He has been at nursery since he was 5 months, and as I said, he starts school in August, so he has not started anything new that would have caused his behaviour to change.

I almost wish I hadn't posted now - I gave a brief example of what I was struggling with, cos I thought a long-winded post would get ignored, but now I'm just all upset and hormonal that you all think I'm a child beater who doesnt have a clue

Don't be upset I think your example in the your OP was just the wrong one to give that's all!

My ds is 5 and is definately pushing all boundaries at the moment and from what you've described I would say your ds is fairly normal.

My advice comes from a paediatric nurse (who has also been a Mum, and her kids seem lovely).

Don't get upset. My kids have been dreadful, and I still remember the day one of their teachers suggested I needed parenting classes.

I wasn't trying to upset you. As I said, I only had your OP to go one. FWIW, I actually think if you're asking for help you must be a concerned mother. (though I still disagree with the smacking)

I agree re the star chart. You shouldn't take stars away otherwise he'll start to think what's the point? Make sure he gets lots of stars for easy things that you know he can do. Not just for the things you want him to do IYSWIM. The whole point is praise and 'good' attention.

However, you just need to accept than even with this all in place and all working, he's always going to be naughtier at 5&6 than he was at 3&4 as he's more aware of himself as a person and it becomes natural for him to test the boundaries set. They do come out the other side with lots of support and praise and (important when you're 5) consistency.

(Sorry I upset you)

I wouldn't give so many opportunities to be "naughty". Warn him once to stop or whatever will happen (whether that is that he doesn't get a star or loses a toy maybe), if he does it again then do whatever you said your would. And be assertive (not shouting/angry, just firm). Do NOT bounce on the sofa ....

You can do time out in a shop too. So long as you can bear the looks from other shoppers.

I do think it's too much to expect though at the end of a day for him to be brilliantly behaved for over an hour - i'd be bored.

thanks everyone. tbh I'm hypersensitive at the moment...

The example I gave was purely that it had felt like the last straw, so was the one that was in my head - and yes, it all made sense in my head, just not so much when I wrote it down.

I just adore my son - even the strong will - and it is just wearing me down that there's so much (what seems like) battling at times. And I guess I'm scared that it gets worse when the new baby comes along.

[sigh]

My dad always plays a blinder with naughty children. He tells them what will happen if they don't behave. He follows this through. And then he ignores any moaning/pleading/unfairness of it all.

So, if DS is being a little pain and won't sit still, you could say "If you don't sit still, we will have to go straight home now and you will be going straight to bed as soon as we get in"

DS (of course) carries on doing exactly what he wants (as they all do )

You take DS straight out of the shop, drive home and put him straight to bed without any sort of interaction. Because I'm guessing what he wants is attention, I know mine does, and he gets it from you when he's bored and playing up.

When he moans, just say "I told you what would happen, I don't want to talk about it anymore" and pretty much ignore the subject. Not him, just the bad behaviour and the punishment.

Hopefully after a few occasions of this he'll know you mean it and will behave better, as he gets no response particularly from you.

Does that make any sense? I know what I mean.

But then he is a 5 year old boy, so is programmed to be, erm, challenging. I can often be found ignoring the above advice and just screaming.

Btw I don't think you are being unreasonable in expecting DS to do as his told some of the time.

My children were never incentivised by reward charts for good behaviour at all. So instead of the carrot we use the stick approach.

Like Bertie Bassett we are crystal clear in any situation, big or small. We are clear and give warning that if you do not stop doing X then you will be punished by XYZ. It is the same for jumping on the sofa or being cheeky or whatever. And we ALWAYS follow through on it no matter what.

To begin with it was total hell because they didn't actually believe we would do it, and when they were punished they went into meltdown which we ignored, but quite quickly they got the message.

Now, 9/10 times the warning is enough.

However, I would also advocate as much as possible trying to avoid situations where they are likely to misbehave.

Also in the meantime all good behaviour is mega praised and they get random presents and little treats to reward them generally for being sooo good so they can see rewards too.

I think in the situation you mention I would have tried to keep him occupied by talking to him or telling him a story before he started getting difficult. When we caught the bus at that age, I always started a conversation just before the bus was due.

If he still proved unable to sit still, I would have taken him by the hand and walked around with him.

Only if he still misbehaved would I have gone into punishments and threats.

The problem with telling them that "we are going straight home if you can't behave" is that in a furniture shop, this will probably seem like a wonderful reward: it just doesn't work if the outing is for the benefit of the adults in the first place.