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Benefits...following on from unfit parents thread...

294 replies

anais · 08/07/2003 22:33

Well, who wants to start?

OP posts:
Boe · 15/07/2003 14:28

Well done for getting out - I am sorry that it has taken you so long but I hope your life is a damn site better and you have some hapiness and love in it (as well as gas & electric!!)

Batters · 15/07/2003 14:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sonnet · 15/07/2003 14:40

I've been following this thread with interest but for me it has been summed up by custardo: Who am I to comment on who is entitled to what.
Yes, I moan because I'm worse off now than I was, paying higher taxes and losing tax incentives - but after reading Custardos post I'd happily give everything I had ( and more) to help people in her plight.

I have a very wealthy SIL who has two children who have everything.( to put wealthy into perspective: 2mil house, indoor swimming pool, stable yard, 2 story 25foot playroom stuffed with toys, holiday house in Florida and Portugal) Those "poor" children have both been diagnosed by a psychiatrist as having chronic insecurity. They struggle to make friends and mix with other children - and look and act "unhappy" so...visual evidence to me that "money dosn't buy you happiness".

pie · 15/07/2003 15:23

Boe wrote: "Where were the fathers in all of this??? I am sorry to ask such a question, I probably don't understand how hard it is but am so scared of getting into that situation that I take huge precautions with contracaption and I make sure I don't sleep with anyone who is gonna buzz off if I did become pregnant."

With the best will in the world you can never predict how another person will live their life. I was married to DD's bio father, but over 3 years on, not a penny and no contact. Despite CSA, despite him insisting on joint custody when we split. Would you have thought your ex2be could have turned out like he did when you got pregnant, do you think, knowing what he is like, now, that he will ALWAYS be there for your DD?

Just want to make it clear that there are plenty of single parents who don't chose to be single or end up being single by being 'irresponsible'.

MABS · 15/07/2003 19:10

Custy , how well written and sums everything up beautifully. I haven't posted before as i don't want to get into it, but had to when I read Custy's poignant words. Look forward to seeing you agin in a couple of weeks Custy.

anais · 15/07/2003 21:23

Webmum, no, i don't think I was too young to have a baby, i did understand the consequences - as much as anyone having a 1st baby can - I just didn't realise it would be so difficult to find work.

I have a cousin who has waited for everything to be 'right' before having a family. She is in her 40's now, still single and unlikely to ever have children. She's not the only one that I can think of in the same situation. IMO you can wait forever to be able to 'afford' or be 'ready' for a baby. I didn't want to wait for that imaginary 'perfect' time. Maybe that was irresponsible, but I wouldn't change the decisions I made.

My children don't suffer. They don't miss out. Money isn't everything. I am lucky that I'm not in such a desperate situation that custy describes.

Out of interest where are you?

OP posts:
WideWebWitch · 15/07/2003 21:32

Pie, every time I'm incensed by a comment on this thread I check to see whether you've replied before I respond and usually you have and have said a similar thing, so saving me the effort! Thanks, great stuff.

prufrock · 15/07/2003 21:47

Anais - I realise I left your earlier question unanswered, so, even though we seem to have moved on, I would probably say around £120/week. Would that be enough? Too much? Please don't ask me how I would expect to fund it though. I also have to say I would make that only for pre school - whilst I admire your determination to home ed, I don't feel it's something the state should fund. (of course they should be funding a decent education system so that you don't have to home ed)

I am really not disagreeing with the whole concept of a benefit sysytem to help people who need it. But I am against the benefit system that we have in this country at the moment, because it doesn't give enough to many people, and disincentivises many others from doing anything but be on benefits. Why work, when the net difference in income can often be so minimal? Surely a starting point would be to force the long term employable unemployed into some form of voluntary work, so that benefits wouldn't be an easy option.

And the people I am accusing of seeing benefits as an easy option are not people like you custy - they are people like my little brother and his mates, brought up in relative comfort, perfectly capable of working, and yet not seeing any sense of shame at all in claiming income support whilst they "work out what they want to do with their lives", and wait for the interesting, high paying job that they feel is their "right" to come along.

spacemonkey · 15/07/2003 21:53

custy, i found your post very moving - I'm glad things are better for you now x

webmum · 15/07/2003 22:00

Custy,

CAn I just say that (in case your post was intended to me) I never said anything about young mums not being good mums, no one thinks that, I just think that at 17 you may not fully appreciate how hard it's going to be, (possibly you don't even whne you're older), I know sometimes when I was younger I wanted something so much as to lose track of all the 'consequences', part of growing up is knowing that you can't have everything just because you want it. This doesn't amke you a bad mother, but I think you get a bit of a shock when baby comes along and things are much more difficult than expected. This is hard enough if you don't ahve financial worries and a supporting partner and more experience behind you. I cannot imagine what it would be like without all these things.

I'd never advocate to put a price tag on a child or to take children away from anyone (unless they were hurting them) but I still think that deliberately bring children into the world when they are going to live in poverty (and knowing that if you have children it will be twice as hard to try and get out of poverty) is at thge very least naive. I suppose at 17 you think thiungs will work out in the end, well that doesn't always happen, and this is what you learn when you grow up, and most peole don't know at 17 or thereabouts. (not talking about you, don't know you, but the vast majority don't)

I can see you've had a very hard life, one I cannot even begin to imagine, and I don't know your situation, but you admit you are an exception, so would you say to any young girl wanting to start a family before she's even had a chance of creating a decent life for herself to go ahead, have the baby if you want? I guess my point is, why make it harder on yourself? Why not find a job, a place to stay and then have children? At 17 you're not so old you can't wait any longer.

I don't know if this is your case, but I can imagine a lot of young girls have children to escpae home, maybe because life is hard at home, they think they can have their own family and things can be different, but it's very hard to change things, it's even harder if you have a young child to take care of.

I'm sorry to hear what happened to you especially after you managed to get back on your feet, you really deserved better luck, of course there was nothing you could do in that case, and you must be an extraordinary person to have sailed through all of that, I was talking about girls who have a choice, not about people whose partner runs away after promising help, or lose their job etc etc.

I've probably changed the subject anyway, this is not even about benefits, I don't mind paying taxes so that other people can have something they deserve, what I don't understand is those people who somehow put themselves in that position, I could have been one (even though you don't get ebenfits in Italy), I was having sex at 17, but I b made sure I didn't get pregnant, I knew that then I'd have had to accept the first job available and just try and make ends meet like that, I had other aspirations, I suppose these girls don't...this doesn't make it right, it's like when you have a baby to save your marriage, it doesn't work, the same applies here, you don't get out of a bad situation by having a baby, you just make it worse. And I don't think you know these things when you're 17.

When I was 21 I was bulimic for a while, when my boyfriend found out he said the solution was for us to have a baby (we often talked about getting married and starting a family once we finished university and found a job), but it would have been a mistake, just imagine what kind of depression I would have got myself into!!! And it would not have been fair to the baby either.

One final point, to all who keep saying that babies do not need money they need love, of course they no need money themselves, but they do need a roof on their head, food to eat, clothes, you can get all of these cheaper, but you still need some money, or am I wrong???

Just to conclude my post is not about who should or shouldn't ahve babies, I don't think anyone can regulatre that, all I'm saying having children is a huge resposnsibility and you should be able to take that on in every sense, you all admit tha life on benefits is no happy thing, why would you wish that on an unborn child, if you haven't even tried to make things better for you? I believe people owe it to themselves and their babies.

With all the due respect to peole like Custardo and Anais.

webmum · 15/07/2003 22:08

anais

just read your post, I'm in London, but I come from Italy.

I'm sure your children don't suffer, you sound like an excellent person, I understand what you say about waiting till your 40, but at 17 you had a long time ahead of you and I'm not talking about waiting for the perfect time, just be employed...I guess we just see things differently, I'd never have baby if I could't support him/her, I just think it is my responsibility and joy to provide for them.

I suppose we're just different....

Boe · 16/07/2003 12:47

Anais in effect what you are saying is because you wanted to do something whilst yu were still young enough you went ahead and did it - there are lots of things that I would like to do but cannot afford to or it is the wrong time in my life to do so, I don't just damn the consequences and do it anyway - that is just behaving in an irresponsible way - you had 23 years ahead of you before you got to 40??????

I know money does not make a difference either but I think that if you cannot afford the basics though your own choice without having to turn to something like manning sex lines then things must be pretty drastic.

And to not only decide to have one child but 2 is pretty unbelieveable - are neither of their fathers around???

Oh and I do understand that men do not stick around (although wish my DDs father would just piss off!) one of my friends is bringing a child up on her own and she did not want to be in that situation but she is making the best of it and holds down a full time job, I asked her what she thought of your choices Anais and she said that it is people like you who give people like her a bad name - as a single mother she is appalled!!!

By the way she is 30 years old and her parting comment was EDUCATION!!!!!

Boe · 16/07/2003 12:53

Pie - I understand your post about the fathers not being around, really I do and I think they should have their penises lopped off so they can never do it again - using it with undue care and attention or something!!

What I do not understand is why someone would chose to be in a situation like this??

doormat · 16/07/2003 14:54

Boe no offence please but you made a statement that you wish dd's father would p* off.Would you really like that, I am sorry but you dont know what it is like to have the father of your children not wanting to know or contact them.It is a horrible and hurtful position for the children and also the mother when they see their children upset and rejected.Until you are in that position please do not comment like that.
Anais I think you are doing a brilliant job.
Custy

SamboM · 16/07/2003 15:00

Custy your £1.00 teddy bears just made me cry

SamboM · 16/07/2003 15:00

... sorry posted too soon by mistake, meant to add,

so I can't imagine how they made you feel.

Xxx

M2T · 16/07/2003 15:29

....can I just step in for a second...

Doormat - Just to clarify somefink I think the reference to Boe's H is because he is currently making up stories about her lack of ability as a mother and trying to deny her custody and access to her dd, he also has been violent towards her.... Am I right Boe?
I don't think she meant that he's just annoying her and would rather he wasn't there anymore... he sounds like a very horrible person. Just wanted to say that coz it wasn't clear in Boe's message.

However, Boe... I do think that was a wee bit harsh on Anais.

doormat · 16/07/2003 15:35

M2T I realise this and I know that she is having a hard time. But just because she does not like her husband (I wouldnt neither in her position) doesnt mean her dd wont feel rejected if he just "pissed off".
I also feel Anais is being picked and dont think that is fair.

M2T · 16/07/2003 16:44

True I s'pose....

Batters · 16/07/2003 17:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tortington · 16/07/2003 20:15

gosh no i didnt post to anyone in particular, and i do not advocate it to my daughter - ifell pregnant by accident becuase i was to bloody stupid its becusae i was that i know there can be young people who are having sex yet being very naive about the consequences as opposed to those whom i assume webmum is refering who coolly and calmly became pregnant for a specific reason. then there are those who do not see themselves with any future and have probably had family life crappy and really have no hope.

now, i just ate... 1/2 punnet of rasberries, 1/2 punnet of strawberries, 2 plums and shed loads of cherries. healthy luxury which many will never be able to afford. just one very small luxury that reminds me how lucky i am.

webmum · 16/07/2003 21:17

I really did not want to log on tonight, I did to check if someone was offended by my posts.

You may not believ this but I've actually spent part of the day thinking about this....I don't think I should take part in serious discussions anymore, I just don't feel confortable about throwing things on the interent when obviously the otehr person is not there to reply in front of me. This is why I logged on tonight, I kept thinking of anais and custardo hoping I did not offend them. I am clearly not strong enough for these kind of discussions.

Batters in case you're post was directed at me, I wasn't attacking Anais, but was genuinely interested in understanding her reasoning behind her choise and whether she ever thoguht it was a mistake at the time.

Anyway, I am now withdrawing from the discussion as I'm not emotionally stable enough for this, but I'll keep logging on on Mumsnet, must just remember to refrain from getting involved in anything but practical baby stuff.

sorry for the hurried exit...and please do not think I am trying to attract attention, I just can't stand the pressure....

Love to everyone

judetheobscure · 16/07/2003 21:28

webmum - I can sympathise with your feelings - when I found myself getting upset during the day at some of the names I had been called I decided it was time to call it a day with this thread - however, I'm still looking in - so just to say to custardo - your post brought tears to my eyes too.

anais · 16/07/2003 21:44

Each night I come on here expecting this thread to have dies, and still here it is!

Firstly thanks to everyone who is standing up for me - I do understand that you don't all agree with me and my choices, but I did feel it was getting a little personal.

Prufrock - it's complicated isn't it? It dpends what the £120 would fund - it wouldn't be enough to pay for housing in most parts of the country.

As for the state paying for me to home-ed - I agree with you, it is my choice to HE and that is why I am so determined to start working. Although on the other hand the state pays for every other child's education, so....giving parents an allowance to educate their own children would be a cheaper way that state schools. But that is a completely separate issue, and not one I want to get involved in right now.

I also agree that the benefits system needs an overhaul. It sounds hypocritical in my situation, but I do think the long-term unemployed (those who are capable of being employed) should be pushed into work rather than the mums. Just imo.

Webmum, I don't think anyone can understand the consequences on their life of having a baby - no matter what age. Maybe you are more idealistic at 17 but I'm not convinced that's a bad thing.

I didn't have a baby because I was trying to run away - I had a baby because I thought it was the right thing to do at that point in my life. Not knowing me and my situation I don't think you can tell me that I was wrong. I had - and still have aspirations - there are lots of things I want to do with my life. When I got pregnant I had been planning to go to Uni in Australia - but having a baby seemed more important. There are times when I wonder what life would be like had I made different choices - but doesn't everyone wonder? The chances are I wouldn't have stuck with any of the other things - I hadn't stuck at anything else in my life up until then - just started and then dropped out when I got bored. In that sense a baby was the best thing that could have happened. I've always wanted to have children when I was young - and I'm young enough to have plenty of time for the other stuff when I'm older.

OP posts:
anais · 16/07/2003 22:06

Boe - firstly I find your tone offensive and unnecessarily confrontational. I have been impressed up until now that depsite debating such an emotive subject where there are many strongly held opinions, it has remained calm and rational, without the name calling and mud slinging so often associated with heated debates. It is a shame to see that being degraded now. I'm sorry if things are difficult for you at home right now, but that's no reason to take it out on me.

We are different people - I don't expect youto agree with all my choices and I doubt I would agree with all yours. The difference is I am laying myself open and being honest and I'm now being attacked for doing so. I don't ask you to agree, I do ask you to be respectful of my right to the choices I made.

Maybe you see the those decisions as irresponsible - I know you are not alone in that view. There is little point me continuing to defend my position - I am merely repeating myself.

You are complaining because I am not working, and now I have found a job you are critisising the job. I think I can't win this argument. It wouldn't be my choice of job, but flexible work from home is bloody hard to come by and my priority is my children. I will do any job which allows me to stay at home with them. You obviously disagree with my choice to stay at home anyway, so there's no point arguing on that.

Tell me WHY I give single mothers a bad name? WHich bit of my situation is so bad that I bring disgrace on other more worthy single mums?

And finally, your comment re education - what does that mean? I am not uneducated - if that is the implication. I may not have had a university education, but that doesn't make me somehow inferior. If you mean sex ed then I was perfectly aware of the consequences of my actions, so that's hardly an argument.

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