Unfit parents.

[anais]

Is anyone watching this? Any thoughts?

Actually speech and language therapy for us is turning out to be "an unobtainable fantasy". I'll let you know if we ever get any.

unattainable even. Fantasy all the same.

Thinking about it more- I'm not sure what I think about economic migrants so don't want to be confrontational when I'm not sure what my views are. Can see both sides of argument (not enough money to support the vulnerable we already have vs they have a crappy life we're a rich nation we should be able to provide.). Nope I'm not sure what I think. I'd still like some bloody speech therapy though

Allowing economic migrants would be a huge step towards actually solving this countries immigration problems. The main issue with asylum seekers is actually one of perception - everybody thinks they get loads of freebies, and are a drain on this country, but the figures don't actualy bear this out. If you allowed economic migrants, who were given limited state support until they found jobs, you would stop them coming in on bogus asylum claims, and provide a badly needed workforce for this country (half of London's building trade is based on black economy Eastern Europeans). And if "British" peoele were able to see "foriegners" making a contribution rather than scrounging benefits it might reduce the support that quasi-facist politicians are gaining.

(BTW - if anybody reading Mumsnet today is getting confused as to my political leanings - libetarian one minute, right-wing the next - join the club. I'm very confused myself at the moment)

Ok, can we leave the benefits question out of this? Surely this is not the point, the point is, should learning disabled people be 'allowed' to have children.

Yes, I'm a single mum on benefits, yes, I guess I am touchy about it, but surely that's another debate. I will post a new debate about that very matter.

I agree with what Pie said here:

"But I think that as a society you either say 'yes we will take care of those who aren't able to take care of themselves and we treat and understand that they have the same desires and rights as others' or you start setting limits. And whatever these may be you start getting into, what I think, is very shaky ethical grounds about the rights and capablities of those who are different. And thats why there aren't any limits. I mean say you thought that 2 children was enough,, could you force a woman to have serilisation? "

That's what China does, isn't it? Allowing only one child, does anyone support that?

Marialuisa, are you new? I don't remember argu...er I mean debating with you before

Your point about forced sterilisation, I totally disagree - wouldn't they be better helping these women combat their addiction than just sterilising them? Maybe I'm just too idealistic and naive?

Lisalisa makes some great points...

Boe:

"
I would though like to see State Nurseries set up where children are educated and parents are forced to work (inflamatory) but I think that the Government would benefit and society would also - children from poorer homes (and I am not saying they aren't intelligent) would probably get a better upbringing in their formative years and the moeny that these people are earning is going to be taxed so that could be used to fund this system. People should also have access to state nurseries if they are working - as I am - and are not on benefit, maybe at a subsidised rate."

I want to continue this elsewhere as it is completely OT, but MY GOD LOVE. I am a single mum (currently on benefits but trying to get off - not easy, but will go into that on another thread), and I am planning to home educate my children. Why should I be forced to hand my children over to someone else to bring up???? I feel sickened by the very thought of this. It might suit you, but it horrifies me that you would suggest that it should be a blanket solution. I think you should get off your high horse and imagine yourself in that position. WOuld you like to be forced into a situation that went against everything yu beleive in? As someone else said, perhaps you should adopt the "there but for the grace of god..." approach.

Incidently, I got sent this the other day, thought it was kinda relevant:

If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion?

If you said yes, you just killed Beethoven.

No but I'd have recommended she got the hang of contraception a long time ago

The parents in this programme were spookily similar to a family I know well who now have three kids, and the list of problems in that family is trully horrific and I fear for each of the kids.
I really don't know what the answer is. You can't exactly stop people from producing children if that's their desire and they are physically able.

The three children I have in mind have a very very bleak future.

Anais is right, they will probably be fantastic grown ups

Haven't seen the programme, but surely if Mark and Tracey don't turn out to be "good enough" parents, their baby (or babies) will be taken into care?

I too think it is morally wrong to deliberately bring children into the world if you don't have the finances to support them. Why should other people subsidise your children? How about setting a maximum of 2 children if you're on long term unemployment benefits; any children after that to be adopted. (Ducks beneath parapet).

Where does your super-rich category start? And have you not heard that the more you tax the top end of the population the less revenue comes in. Some members of the Labour and LibDem parties seem to have forgotten this too

Jude be off to my benefits thread and state your case there...see you there

Boe - I believe the opposite - that mothers (or fathers)from low-income families should be paid to stay at home and look after their children.

judetheobscure - and if you have more than 2 children and then fall on hard times, your children should be taken away to be adopted also?

I don't know whether that is true about there being a reduction in revenue should you not tax the top end but I think it sends a message that the rich should put their hands in their pockets and help out a bit! Plus, what's the alternative - don't tax them so much cos they might take their ball home?

Judetheobscure how are you going to put this two baby thing into practice? It all sounds a bit Nazi, what about things just going like they do?

I cant believe what I am reading on this thread.
This is a very upsetting subject re the learning disabled adults and should they be allowed to have children?I never watched the programme. Who are we ,as a society,to dictate who can and cant have children and how many we should have?????these systems have been built (social services, dss amongst others) to help people when they are at there most vulnerable.With the social services involvement they receive, if these children were not looked after properly they would be taken straight into CARE, let us not kid ourselves.
Does having money define being a good parent????
Is being on benefits not beneficial to the childs welfare???
Does being disabled make you an unfit parent????

IMO the answer is NO to all 3 questions.

1. My ex FIL is a multi millionaire, his 6 children do not bother with him because he was too busy amassing his fortune to spend any quality time with them when they were little. The children dont even want any of the money when he is gone neither as he was such a ruthless bastard.
2. Do people honestly belive that people like living on benefits? Most of the time it is circumstances beyond a persons control (ie partner leaving, bereavement, job loss) that they have to rely living on benefits. It is not there fault. Most of us are fortunate not to rely living on the state but god forbid if anything happened to change your life events, you would thank there was such a place as the dss to help out when in diffulculty. 3.I have a severely disabled child. He cant walk, talk or eat. He will not lead a life like you and most of the children here. Lets not forget there are other children to mumsnetters here that this subject is upsetting too but this is my opinion. Going back to my ds if there was ever a chance he could have a child I would jump in both feet first.(I know he cant as the doctors have said his testicles have not developed)But the fact of having a grandchild from him would be amazing.O.K there would be no way he could look after the child but I certainly would.

These are my examples of my life and there is one thing I have learnt throughout my life and that is there is always someone worse off than ourselves and I would not like to live in their shoes but I would never be judgemental in the way they live and conduct their lives (unless a child was being hurt, which this is obviously not happening here)

doormat I agree totally with what you have said.

Well said doormat- and I think you demonstrate the many shades of grey in these arguments.

Doormat - I don't think the learning disabled shouldn't be allowed to have kids - I just don't accept that I should provide the financial means for them to be able to make those choices.

I do however worry about your last statement. If your son is not acapable of looking after a child, does that not make him (or others like him) an unfit parent? As we all know, a child is not a toy - it's a lifelong resposnibility and can be bloody hard work. Is it really fair to the parents or the child to create that responsibility when they don't fully understand it?

prufrock in answer to your post how can my son be an unfit parent (or others like him)when he does not have the chance to become a parent because he is so severely disabled.It is not his fault he was born this way nor mine as I done everything right throughout my pg.
Try and put yourself in my position (and others like me) and understand how I feel by not seeing my son grow up to lead a normal life with a partner and having children. You are right it is not fair but on BOTH sides of the coin. Please understand this.

Oh doormat of course it's not your fault. I didn't for one minute suggest it was, and I can't understand how awful you feel, only sympathise. It is so much easier for those of us who are not actually faced with this situation to moralise about what should and shouldn't be done. It's not fair that your son can't expect a "normal" future. But isn't it better to accept that and live as good a life as possible within his boundaries, than totry to conform to societies vision of a normal life, into which he might not fit? (And that is a genuine question, and not directed solely at you)

prufock why do you think the couple in question on the programme did not fit within the 'normal' boundaries to have children. From what I saw they were coping reasonably well and all the support was there for them. The objective view that seems to have come accross is that alot people didnt agree with them having kids because they were on benefit and social services are paying for their support, so? Lets go back 30 years shall we, even if they had been institutionalised social services would still be paying for that care too wouldnt they?

Why do you think it is so wrong for a mother to want her son/daughter whether disabled or not to have a 'normal' life? My daughter is learning disabled and you may think Im silly but I would love her to get married and have children too, the only difference with my daughter is that she would have her parents for support, unfortunatley the couple on this programme had no family support.

prufrock, of course I accept the way he is. I am not conforming to any hopes of a stereotypical future for him as that is not meant to be. We live each day as it comes in a happy enviroment.I have accepted this for a long time.I have never asked for sympathy nor wanted it.
Going back to the unfit parent god forbid if anything happened to any of us ie accident, stroke, disability (and it does happen) and we are not in charge of our own faculties and unable to look after our children,does that make us unfit parents??????
People disabled or not have genuine feelings, let us not forget that!!!!!!

Anais - I am not saying it will be a blanket solution but would help to a certain degree and I knew it would be infamatory.

I have never been in your situation so can not relate but I feel that people should be more responsible when it comes to bringing children into the world that they cannot afford (I am not referring to you so don't feel aggreived and it is my personal belief - I do not know how you got into the situation you are in!!).

There is no blanket solution but if there were 2 parents at home claiming benefit and having countless children I feel that they should be made to earn their benefits somehow. I also feel that women who have lots of children and have never worked have no right to carry on reproducing and something needs to be done. The dads contributing would be a good start!!

There is no solution to this - lots of different cases and scenarios and at the end of the day my feeling as an adult is that I would love not to go to work (really just to work part time) and spend more time with my daughter but I cannot afford to and as for home schooling I cannot afford to do that either (I am not sure how you can?) - I made the decision to have her and therefore have to do my best with the limited resources I have - my daughter is my responsibility and no one elses and issues with benefit and tax etc. would not be so huge if more people were responsible when taking the decision to reproduce.

I know if I were in charge of the coffers I would - once your children were of school age - send them to school and make you get a job if that meant that other children who were disabled got speech therapy and physio, hospitals and schools were properly staffed - hard choice at the end of the day but someone would have to make a decision like this. I do not object to my taxes being spent on worthy causes, what I do object to is people feeling that they have a right to follow certain paths that they cannot afford to and in a way making the rest of the workforce pay for their children.

May seem OT to you but to me it is about being an adult and responsible for our own choices.

This is not a personal attack on you - as I said before I do not know how you got into the situation you are in.

I think with the two people mentioned who were differentially abled (as I said I am not good at PC stuff - is this the right word - I did not watch the programme!) - if they are unable to make an informed decision and realise the huge responsibility of having a child then maybe they have not done the right thing.

differentially abled - I love it!!! I'm going to start using that one!

Glad I wrote something that someone liked - people are not dis-abled/able bodied at the end of the day - we all differentially abled.