Afghanistan

[Bloss]

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Bloss, I don't know what say... I have clicked on your link and looked at the site and I have tears running down my cheeks now as I write. As you say, it is truly heartbreaking... I feel completely at a loss...

Bloss, I went to bed thinking about this and can't get the barbarity out of my head! It is astonishing that these atrocities are not on our news programmes on a daily basis! I wonder why this is?

My first reaction (beyond the tears!) has been to e-mail everyone I know on line the website address. Whilst the enormity of this is very difficult to take on board, thank you for bringing it to Mumsnet users attention. Best wishes, Winnie

The most sickening thing is that the only news on Afghanistan to truly hit world-wide headlines in recent months was the destruction of the Buddhist statues. I guess the fact that the regime is religion based accounts for at least some of the reluctance for international criticism.

I wondered if I would see a thread on this today... I am glad someone raised it.
I also watched the programme and found these women amazingly courageous. We use to hear a lot about Afghanistan when the Russian were invading it but now it is hardly ever talked about (in the UK) at least. It also makes you think of the political refugees who come to this country. There has been a lot of debate about asylum seekers in this country... but when you look at the situation in Afghanistan - no wonder people flee! And some of these people are highly educated. WHat a waste.
And it is such a beautiful country as well - all destroyed in 2 - 3 decades.

Really sad !

All the asylum seekers I have read out from Afghanistan are male. Just goes to show that granting asylum is one thing, but far more vital is to focus on the key issue.

Thank you for telling me about the RAWA site. There's so much to take in. I can only begin to imagine how awful these women's lives must be. Shame on the UN for not offering them the help they need.

The Taliban have upset me for years (first read about it in Marie-Claire!)- but the worst aspect of it is, that the West doesn't really consider it an issue. IF it were an ethnic minority being treated like this (e.g. serbs) then there would be an outcry. But because its ONLY women its excused as being part of their culture. HOWEVER, its never been these women's culture, its imposed on them, and there is no excuse for persecution on this scale anyway.

The Taliban really is a feminist issue, but how can we in the free West get anything done?

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Bloss, thanks for doing that. I am going to write to my MP asap to try and get some questions raised and will review the site for other suggestions.
I saw the program last night & was in tears at what those people are going through. Surely, with all the people who access this site we should be able to get some more attention paid to this subject.
It makes you realise that perhaps we worry too much about fairly minor problems, and don't appreciate what we have.

A warning for the users who found the details in the thread about James Bulger upsetting; there are some very graphic and disturbing video clips contained in the RAWA website, so if you will find these too distressing, don't go there.

Lil, it isn't just women apparently - the programme last night reported cases of ethnic cleansing where entire villages were wiped out.

I've been keeping an eye on what's going on in Afghanistan ever since the Taliban got in. I'm really glad the documentary was shown.

I did get upset at the James Bulger thread because I cannot bear the thought of children torturing and killing a baby, I feel so powerless. However, I will look at the RAWA site as I feel that we can all do something to stop this. I will email all my friends and ask them to do the same.

My husband, who was brought up a Moslem, says that what the Taliban doing is all legal according to the Koran.

It is profoundly depressing that the international community is apparently more concerned about the fate of a couple of statues than the suffering of the people of Afghanistan.

On a different but related point, in 1992, democratic elections were postponed in Algeria. This was because it was discovered that the fundamentalist Islamic parties who were poised to win, were being heavily funded from abroad, which is illegal under the Algerian constitution. They were so sure of winning the election that they went on the TV before the vote, warning Algerian women to look to their wardrobes. Well, the ruling FLN party didn't fight a long and bitter war against the French colonialists to hand their country over to religious fundamentalists using cash from abroad. So they postponed the elections, which were eventually held in 1995 I think. What was the international response? condemnation of the lack of democracy in Algeria, reports of civil war (untrue), and guess who's taking the Islamic fundamentalists on political asylum, because their democratic rights have been denied to them? You've got it - the UK.

Sml what does that say about the Koran then??

As a level-headed career woman, doesn't that put you off of the moslem faith?

Hi Lil, I've stood up for Islam before because I hate to see it attacked from a position of ignorance. But it is what it is, and it allows the sort of things that are going on in Afghanistan. When the religion (Islam) was founded, there is a story about how baby girls were killed at birth by some tribes, so that they wouldn't grow up to shame their families. Women had no rights at all. So then Islam outlawed killing girls and gave women certain rights, eg they could inherit half what a man inherits etc. It also laid down certain laws, eg a married woman is not allowed to speak to a man who is not her husband or intimate family without witnesses. The Taliban are apparently legislating to punish people for committing this sort of sin, which sort of takes away the merit in being good. I mean it's not exactly the same if you get to heaven because you were scared of being publically flogged is it?
Most Moslem countries have secular laws, not religious ones, and so they go along quite happily, with women able to have careers etc and live what we would consider to be normal lives, just the same as we do in the UK with Christianity. Remember the Commonwealth though, when they tried to impose Christian fundamentalism on the British people? It was pretty unpopular too. My view is that religion is a personal thing. The disadvantage of highly organised religions like the Christians and Islam is that they give the licence to impose fundamentalism on other people. So, the answer to your question is, yes, it puts me off organised religion. And yes, I am an intermittant churchgoer. This is because our vicar is great! She is a person who thinks things out for herself, and tries to help her congregation do the same.

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Sml, I did not know that the election postponement in Algeria led to some of the fundamentalists seeking political asylum here, that's shocking. So where was the money coming from?

Marina, the official view is that the money was coming from Islamic groups in other Moslem countries who wished to further the cause of Islam. A cynic might add that it could equally well have come from any country which had an interest in seeing a weakened Algeria, and wished to exert control in the southern Mediterranean.

Bloss, I agree with much of what you say, but must take issue with you that replacing old religions was necessarily a good thing. Islam replaced the traditional and ancient religion of the Berbers, which was not bad or vengeful. Islam allows religious people to tell the Berbers that they should speak a foreign language because it is the language of God (Arabic) instead of their own native tongue. It tells them to give their children foreign names instead of Berber ones because these are the names of the religion (Christianity does the same!). Islam has tried to erode the status in society of Berber women; Moslem standards for women were an improvement on what Arab women had before, but they are a restriction on Kabyle women. Kabyle had women leaders before the advent of Islam - the last one was called Dihya Demia, she led the Berbers fighting against the Arab invaders.

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Bloss, I think the pressure to speak Arabic can be a question of "I'm more religious than you..." Re names, I meant Bible names like John, Paul, Daniel, Adam, Rachel, Rebecca, Ruth, Naomi, Eve, Peter, Mary, Jacob etc etc, which we use at the expense of old English ones.

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Just thought I'd add my 2 pence worth !
It is only 40 years ago that Latin was dropped as the preferred catholic language. Not so much to speak it but to read it and understand it. My Mum always when to mass in Latin (she is only 55) and so did my grand parents.
So it's inaccurate to say "Christianity certainly does not require people to learn a new language"... it did a few decades ago. That is also why some remote African villages still read mass in Latin !
And the same thing is true for names- maybe not in the UK but there are catholic countries that require you to have a catholic name ! All of this is starting to be less so but the change/evolution is only a few decades old.

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Actually, the Catholic church does require that your baby has at least one Christian name, otherwise they won't baptise it.

Latin masses are still very much around, especially in Jesuit Churches and some phrases that are used at Mass are still said in Latin "Allelujah" etc. It's not such a bad thing as Latin was once very widely used and most modern languages have latin roots.