Kids under pressure

[Carriel]

Just a quickie - Back on Simon Mayo's radio 5 show again tomorrow afternoon (Tues) main topic are kids under too much pressure, exams, school, peer pressure etc. Any thoughts/anecdotes welcome as ever. They've also got Annabel Karmel on so I'll be looking at al the mumsnet comments we've had about her books and hope to get a word in!

Thanks in advance

SATs are designed to test the school, not the students. why is this message not getting into peoples' heads? (i have a feeling it's the dumber parents who are doing the cramming which makes sense in a mad sort of way.)

It does seem so sad - I feel bad enough sending my little not yet three year old to pre school in Sept - seems so young though I know she's ready. But the underlying message at a lot of these places is that if you don't get into the right 'feeder' pre school you won't get into the right 'feeder' primary that will groom you for the right secondary school. One of the alternatives popular round here is to send your child to a state school but then have extra coaching for the last few years to try and get a scholarship to a private or selective state secondary school - but that too seems to be adding an extra burden - especially when failure can feel like money wasted... who'd be a child? (actually as mine frolics with chums in the paddling pool - I think I would, but then again this time in 13 years time she'll be taking her GCSE's...or whatever they're called by then)

It seems also though that parents are feeling increasingly more pressured to make sure their kids are occupied every minute of the day with this class and that every night after school. What with this and homework when do they get time to just blob or read a book ? we all need a bit of switch off time but this doesn't seem to be the thing to do at the moment

I agree and it goes on a lot younger - a friend of mine whose child is in nursery full time claimed that it was good for kids to get into nursery so they can learn to socialise, discipline etc. This was directed at my child who was aged about 20 months at the time. I know they need these things but everything is pushed at a younger and younger age. Children naturally don't want to socialise till they are around 2 yet stay at home mums are pressured into attending playgroups several times a week otherwise they aren't doing their duty.

JanH I'm not trying to be funny or difficult, but its all very well to go on about what they are designed for, thats not what is happening in reality. If they don't matter to children, then why have them? why not have the teachers sit them instead? Noone wants their kids to be disadvantaged if they can do something to stop it. I've had this discussion before on other places on this site, but my point is that yes you do get competitive Mum or Dad, but if you just say Oh tests don't matter, then what is going to happen to the poor child who gets to secondary school and finds out that yes tests do matter and you cant get a decent job without good results. Yes there are exceptions to this rule, but they are just that - exceptions. Obviously I'm against Mum and Dad turning up in identical track suits to coach their little 3 year old in shoelace tying against the rest of the nursery group, but you cannot in my opinion just dismiss SATs as nothing to worry about. Schools stream kids on these results and I'd take issue with any teacher who says they don't take these results into account when deciding how a child is doing. They certainly don't say Oh Ms Smith hasn't quite got all her irregular verbs sorted out this term since 32% of her class failed to get above grade D this year. Those students still have Grade D on their certificates and will have to re-sit, presumably Ms Smith gets a note on her desk to try harder with next years students. And if parents haven't got the message - could it be because they actually live in the real world and a great deal of the so-called experts in Education haven't stepped outside a classroom since they left Uni. I'm sorry to rant but I've taught the 16-17 year olds who've been told not to worry about tests, and its a terrible waste. Rant over.

kia, i didn't say they didn't matter, just that if parents cram their kids they are doing the school's job for them. they enter school and are assessed and subsequent tests measure how their performance has improved - or not. ideally they will find the tests a challenge, and enjoy doing them up to a point, and nobody - parents, teachers or heads (which i have experience of) should be telling them they HAVE to do well or it'll be the end of the world. i am not aware of any of the schools i know of streaming them purely (or at all) by their SATs results.

i am thinking mostly of the 7-yr-olds and 11-yr-olds rather than the older ones. their childhoods are short enough without being burdened with their parents' ambitions and their teachers' neuroses.

I think its probably wise if we agree to disagree! I'm glad that people have found schools doing the right thing, but my experience is that this is not always the case in practice. Just an old cynic I guess.

I have to say I agree with Janh. What is the point of putting all that pressure on children so young when their individual progress could be assessed continually throughout their younger years? As a parent who has been on the receiving end of a 6yr old in tears because of the Sats I feel very strongly about it. When I told the teacher that I was considering withdrawing her from any further tests I felt very pressurised into allowing her to continue. Why? because if one child withdraws the whole schools results then become void which in turn affects their position in the league tables! I too believe that by coaching children for Sats you are possibly showing a teacher to be of a far better standard than perhaps they are. Another thing that upset me was that both levels were on one paper and my poor daughter couldn't even understand what was being asked of her (she was reading the harder level questions) and the teacher said she wasn't allowed to help her. How is it that other countries like Norway manage so well and their children don't start formal education full-time until they are seven? There is far too much emphasis on tests,exams and tables and not enough on practical things like basic first-aid courses in schools. After all, we might be grateful one day that someone had the skills to help us if we had a heart attack in the street and not just stand there able to inform us that "if a train leaves Glasgow at 10.00 and travels at 60mph ........!

I'm sorry, I promised myself that I wouldn't carry on in this discussion, but I have to add something! My point is that it doesn't matter what kind of a report the teacher gets because parents help their children with homework etc because at the end of the day the teacher is not the one who has to sit the exams. Is the teacher going to be there when your child goes for interview at Uni or employment? No, the child will be there alone with their certificates and nothing about the schools SATs results or Ms Smiths prowess in the classroom is going to be taken into account. But I will be there for the duration. I'm not for one minute advocating cramming for SATs at any age, I'm actually a big believer in teaching children exam techniques in stead so they don't get flummoxed when taking any exam - but I could not possibly rely on one teacher with a class of 30+ being able to get through the whole curriculum with every single student. I'm sorry, its a very raw nerve at prsent, my children are 15 and 13 and are being asked to make quite long term decisions based admittedly on other things as well but also on these very same SATs results. Promise to keep quiet from now on.

Kia, I think I know what your saying but do you really think there is any benefit in putting six and seven year olds through these Sats. Surely no university is going to take a blind bit of notice as to how well a candidate did in a series of tests taken 12 years previously? I also know numerous people (some quite high profile) who openly admit to getting where they are by lying about their qualifications. Which begs the question Why bother? I don't in anyway condone this sort of behaviour but it does seem to be getting more prevellent. I know you said you didn't want to comment anymore on this topic but I would welcome your reply.

binza, i doubt if they even take much notice of 14-yr-old ones. SATs as such are not part of a child's academic achievements - they don't ask for them on application forms or anything.

i do understand where kia is coming from - she thinks if kids are not trained to pass exams, or think they don't matter, with the early ones, they will be too casual with the later ones which do matter. there is also the question of streaming from the Y6 (top junior) SATs when they go up to secondary school - if a school does that, and they have let themselves down they will certainly be put in a low stream initially (although a decent school should be on the lookout for that.)

but they do exams every year from Y3 up anyway - various elements of english plus maths and science are tested - and there is no pressure attached to those at my kids' primary. the teachers only tend to get in a stress about SATs because of the league tables (and the results are not necessarily fair because the teacher responsible for SATs gets the papers long before they're taken; they don't arrive the day before or anything; and teachers i know have told me that there are definitely primary schools, at least, where the SATs teacher gives hints if not actual information to the Y2 and Y6 teachers.)

what i find a bit silly is that once they get to secondary school they are not necessarily taught how to revise, which is much more important for them than doing well in SATs. i think revision skills should actually be on the timetable.

Janh, you're absolutely right about the teachers giving hints regarding the Sats papers . My daughters teacher (see earlier message) showed me the spelling test she had been given,they were nearly all trick words, and told me that a teacher in the neighbouring school had given her class a list of 100 words to learn over the Easter hols which contained the words on the test.
I too think it would be far more productive to teach revision skills and how to organise your work. We have the added complication of an entrance exam for senior school in this area and that seems to take precidence(?) over the Sats in the final year of junior school.Yet more frantic coaching - the child gets in and then finds themselves completely out of their depth and most probably miserable and under pressure for at least the next 5 years.

I think you're both discussing the subject better than I can! I feel so passionately that every child should have the best opportunities they can, and the system is letting them down. I read an article in todays Times that said they were looking at allowing kids to leave school after 14 to take apprenticeships, and the comment was that it was just an excuse for schools to get rid of disruptive students. I feel that SATs are a waste of good teaching time, particularly for the under 14s. You're right, noone refers to them outside the educational arena except of course the school tables which apparently we parents were the ones shouting for!! Everyone in my area knows which schools are good and which are bad, we don't need tables to tell us! Perhaps, I'm not quite 'on-message'! On the other hand, when do you give children the wake-up call? Do you start at 14 and say childhood over, time to work or what? My 13 year old is currently mulling over my work colleague's experience of having to go to college to take GCSE Maths at 38, its quite a salutary lesson, since he sees how much harder it is when you get 'really old'!!! I'm deliberately not putting mine under any pressure beyond the try your best variety, my eldest has just handed in an absolute belter of a report and has been suitably rewarded - yes the personal fry-your-brain mobile phone which we have been holding out against has arrived! Am I worse than the crammer and pressuriser parent - using bribery! Probably.

Hi Kia, I've thought about what you said and I agree that at some point children do have to realise that it's time to knuckle down to serious work. I am not as far down that road as you are as my eldest is coming up to senior school next year and I am trying to impress upon her that it's going to mean a lot more work and it won't be a take it or leave it approach. I do think that your peer group is crutial as to whether or not studying is taken seriously. My own experience was the latter ( not too serious) and I'm now looking at Open University courses to try and make ammends for my lack of commitment all those years ago. We really should live our lives backwards and then we'd appreciate things a lot more! My daughter has a very sensible older friend who is hard-working and I'm hoping that she will be heavily influenced by her example.
I think your reward approach is far more preferable than the "all work and no play" system that I have witnessed amongst my daughters peers -from the tender age of 5yrs.
A final word on the idea of apprenticeships. A good idea in my opinion. There are too many kids leaving schools with no desire of going on to higher education but also with no experience with which to get a job with any prospects. To give them the opportunity to learn a skill and earn a wage would surely be better than sending them off to the dole office. How many times have you tried to get an electrician or plummer in a hurry and been told they'll call round in a weeks time? And then they never do! I'd better call it a day now.

the apprenticeships idea is an excellent one. i've mentioned somewhere else (can't remember where) about a neighbour's son who is a whizz with engines but can barely read - i'm not sure if he's dyslexic or what but just can't - he would struggle with road signs his mum said.
he has left school now and has a job as mechanic at a brilliant garage - hasn't passed his driving test yet though because (i think) he can't do the written paper.

anyway he spent 5 years at secondary school for nothing. i think he managed one grade E which was actually amazing. he would have been much better off in an apprenticeship scheme. i hope they go ahead with it.