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Original poster

Problems with childminder

27 replies

looloo · 02/05/2003 20:26

We are currentley preparing our defence as our former childminder is taking us to court. We found out that she was in breech of several regulations and so withdrew our children immediately. She is claiming £1,000 for the months notice we should have given plus interest and costs. We reported her to ofsted but are unable to find out what happened due to 'reasons of confidentiality'. What we do know is that her registration has been increased from 2 children to 4! My concern over the issues she was in breech of caused me great anxiety and that coupled with not then having a child minder meant that I had to give up work. We can't afford to pay solicitors fees and so are representing ourselves in court, something which we are not particularly looking forward to. Any advice?

OP posts:
childminder · 02/05/2003 21:07

Looloo, am I right in thinking you have been in contact with me? (I sent you the National Standards)

I was wondering how you had got on as I hadn't heard anything.

I wish you well, you know that I agree with you and support your complaint fully.

Childminder - Hertfordshire

griffy · 02/05/2003 21:22

Oh looloo - how awful for you. I've haven't got any dreadfully helpful advice, but hopefully others will have.

When I first went back to work, we had an unhappy experience with a childminder, and we removed DS from her care after 3 weeks with no notice. We did pay an extra week's fees, but only really to make me feel better when I called her to say he wasn't coming again. Finding a nursery place with no notice was a nightmare, but we were lucky.

I'm sure that the court case will be a formality, and that you'll win. Perhaps 'childminder' - if a noteworthy professional, as it sounds - might be able to write a statement to support your defence?

Original poster
looloo · 02/05/2003 21:25

Childminder, yes it was me who contacted you before. She still seems intent on pursuing this so we have no real choice but to continue. Thanks for your support and will let you know the outcome.

OP posts:
Gini · 02/05/2003 22:42

I agree with griffy looloo, maybe childminder could give a statement regarding her professional opinion?

Goodluck, I was lucky and had a grandma that had mine - and know I would have done the same in your position - people like that should not be allowed to look after our dear ones.

Clarinet60 · 03/05/2003 00:10

I had a similar issue with DS's first childminder (minus the sueing). She, too was in breech of several regulations and was, I felt, endangering DS. I withdrew him, but gave a fortnight's notice because I anticipated sheenanigans. (I wouldn't have liked to have had to pay a month's fees). I lost lots of work time too, but as I work from home, I managed to scrape by until I could get him into a nursery.

The childminding inspectorate were worse than useless, so I feel for you, looloo. No advice, but if she was doing what I'm guessing she was doing, you ought to have a good case. Oughtn't they?

berries · 06/05/2003 12:31

Looloo, I was in a similar position about 4 years ago, but with a nursery rather than a childminder. We ended up in court. It rather long winded, but the brief points are this:-

  1. we were told that we would be given a report on any complaint provided we made the complaints (ie you cant get info on complaints made by anyone else)
  2. The nursery failed a number of the regulations BUT this in itself is insufficient reason to break a contract!!! (sounds crazy but true)
  3. The childminder has to prove material loss in order to claim any money from you - ie if she had another child start in your place immediately, she would not be owed any money as she had not 'lost' anything by not having your child there. The last point is the one we won the case on, but only because the judge was trying to find points for us. The main argument is contractual. What sort of contract did you have, did it state she would comply wih regulations, how many regulations did she break and how serious were they, have you got any other proof of these breaks. I really sympathise as I know how awful it is. Please ask for my e-mail and contact me if you want/need further info.
Original poster
looloo · 06/05/2003 20:55

thanks for your messages. It is encouraging to read your support and know that others have been in a similar position and won. Our former childminder was in breech of the regulations as she was leaving our youngest child, then 5 months, with her son, then 14 years, whilst she took our eldest son to Nursery. She was also transporting the 4 children in her care and her son in her car, our eldest son, then 3 years sharing a seatbelt with another in her care, and another child in her care sat on her sons knee. We have also only recently found out that she was only registered to look after 2 children but actually looked after 4. According to the NCMA this means her insurance was invalid.
The contract was an official NCMA contract and we think she was in breech of several of the regulations stated on the contract.
We reported her to ofsted but have been repeatedly told we are not entitled to know the outcome of the enquiry, we have since discovered that her registration has been increased to 4 children though, so we are assuming it couldn't have been that bad!
We do have an independent witness who first alerted us to one of the problems.
I welcome any more thoughts.

OP posts:
Clarinet60 · 07/05/2003 11:00

So - they increased her registration to 4 children after hearing about those appalling seat belt shenanigans.
Childminding inspectorate - registered childminders - all a load of bollocks and I rest my case.
My sympathies go out to you again, looloo.

JanZ · 07/05/2003 11:01

Berries' comment about "material loss" is an interesting one taking in juxtaposition with the background you give Looloo.

If she was only REGISTERED to take 2 kids and not 4, then what loss did she incur by you taking your two out?!

Clarinet60 · 07/05/2003 11:03

What on earth could she have said to them at the enquiry to justify leaving your child with a 14 yr old, and endangering the lives of the children in the car?
It beggars belief.

Clarinet60 · 07/05/2003 15:27

Janz, good point

Original poster
looloo · 08/05/2003 21:45

Further probing of ofsted has resulted in them telling us 'off the record' that the complaint we made wasn't upheld. The local inspector would have made his report based on what he found on the day, and of course our two children were no longer there. Where is the justice in this system? As I pointed out to the inspector I spoke to yesterday, they have now granted her the liscence to continue with her unacceptable and unsafe practice. Meanwhile we face a court hearing with an ofsted report in her favour. Nightmare!

OP posts:
CAM · 08/05/2003 22:08

Your childminder probably lied looloo. As part of your preparation for the court case, get her to prove that she did not have 4 children when resgistered with only 2, ie. ask for her bank account statements over that period of time to show her income was x4.

Jimjams · 08/05/2003 22:13

!!!!!!!!!!
Absolutely horrified. Too shocked to speak really!!!!

Good idea about the bank statements. if she was registered for 2 children and had 4, then you removing yours shouldn't have caused her material loss surely?

The system stinks!

Clarinet60 · 09/05/2003 21:09

Doesn't it just.

Clarinet60 · 09/05/2003 21:12

The inspection system for childminders is pants.
Good ones like Alibubbles abide by the rules, but all a bad one has to do is just make sure she doesn't get caught by the inspectorate on the day. The testimony of parents seems to count for nothing. Sends shivers up your spine.

Original poster
looloo · 12/05/2003 22:59

Good idea about the bank statements, thanks. Of course, she was paid in cash so I don't know what her bank statements would look like!? and that's another issue! I still can't get my head round the system for complaints, it doesn't seem to make sense. I've written to my MP and intend to write to ofsted to voice my concerns, and in the meantime continue to prepare the defence statement for court. I know it's taken me a while, but yes berries, I would appreciate your e-mail so I can contact you, thanks.

OP posts:
childminder · 13/05/2003 09:49

Bank statements are not necessarily evidence of her your childminder's income. She may not pay the cash into her account, so therefore no record of how much she has earned. I am only paid direct to the bank, so appears on my statements, but wouldn't want anyone unauthorised to see that I am £14000 overdrawn on my account, legitimate reasons for it, but that is personal business.

She should, however, have records of all her income and outgoings, required by Ofsted, but they may not see them at inspection, even if an inquiry is to take place. She should have an attendance register detailing arrival and departure times of all children in her care, that is a statutory requirement and set out in the National Standards.

I know this from a local childminder who was subject to an inquiry recently, Ofsted were not permitted to see her accounts, only the register of attendance.

berries · 13/05/2003 14:42

Looloo, I think you need to e-mail tech to ask for my e-mail. Don't want to post it here for obvious reasons (stacks of spam). I think if you can prove that she had 2 extra children in her care at the same time as yours, you should be able to get by on the material loss point. It's the proof that is the problem. It's almost a definite that the other 2 children won't appear on the register (unless it's your children who don't appear!) so you will need to find alternative proof. Did anyone you know see her with the extra kids who would be willing to either go to court, or to submit a statement? Thinking about it, if she was only looking after the 2 kids when she was inspected, they must have been on the register. When was she inspected, was it within the month she is asking for? Ask for the register for the time immediately before and after you left. Not sure if you can request this sort of information, but IME there failure to provide it makes them look bad anyway. Ask if they have ahd any inspections and to provide copies of any results - this should enable you to show that she was still looking after the 2 children she had when she was looking after yous IFSWIM. Try and get evidence on ANY failure to comply with any itme in the contract. IME, the contract itself was quite 'woolly' lots of lovely talk but very difficult to pin down on. The appalling thing is that you would have expected that complying with government regulations was implicit in the contract, but its not.
Anyway, have to go now but feel free to email me direct if you like.

CAM · 13/05/2003 17:43

looloo, as she's taking you to court, you can ask her to provide any documentary or other evidence you like. You are entitled to discover anything pertaining to the case.

Original poster
looloo · 13/05/2003 21:28

Do we have to ask her to produce the documentary evidence now, in our defence statement, or at a later date? Does anyone know?

It is difficult to know how much information to include at this stage. Obviously we are representing ourselves and neither of us have had any experience of court action prior to this.

We also have a witness who is willing to attend court. Do we include her statement in our defence, or do we just provide contact details?

I spoke with ofsted again today, as I still cannot believe the way the system works. I pointed out that it doesn't take a genius to work out that 4 minded children and her own son could not fit in a ford fiesta safely. He said that short of hiding behind a tree to catch her out, there is no way of proving this!

I reiterated the fact that she had only been registered for 2 children whilst minding 4. He hadn't investigated this and felt that an investigating officer would not want to visit again for this reason alone! Gives you faith in the system doesn't it!

OP posts:
carriemac · 13/05/2003 21:48

Looloo can u get free legal aid?

Original poster
looloo · 13/05/2003 21:53

Carriemac - Don't know, how do you go about finding out?

OP posts:
CAM · 14/05/2003 09:47

looloo, for information about what and when for the court case, look at the CourtService website, and read the leaflets,etc online.

CAM · 14/05/2003 09:48

Also, this is almost bound to be in the small claims court, not worth paying a solicitor.