The Mumsnet Society for Environment, Development and Apple Pie

[policywonk]

Thought I'd start a new thread to keep up the conversation about the issues that we were concentrating on at the G20 (maternal and newborn health and a low-carbon future, among other things).

Maybe we can get a bit of momentum going. The next big event will be the IMF/World Bank Spring Meetings at the end of April. This will be the first opportunity to assess how the IMF proposes to use the new money it's been given, and what sort of conditions will be attached to the money given or loaned to developing countries.

I'll kick things off with a link to Oxfam Man's excellent blog

I should say, though, that I don't want to close the climate change debate down. There are lots of non-scientists who are deeply confused/unsure about it and it can only be a good thing to give those positions an airing. So feel free to give the anti-climate-change position if you know about it.

You Tube video very pertinent in this regard too, because it deals with the what if/what might be and what we should do anyway.

I'd thought about that, pw, but also wondered if farming practices in developing countries hadn't been geared to mass export, rather than feeding the local community - is there a better balance to be struck. For example, and this is just off the top of my head - instead of acres and acres given over to one export crop, would it not be useful to grow a more diverse range of crops to support the local community? It would certainly be better for the land, as growing the same crop over and over requires more and more fertiliser, etc.

Are Oxfam suggesting people be vegetarian, then? I think limiting the amount of meat/fish eaten and eaten higher quality, less intensively reared meat is a better option - some land - such as hills in Wales - is really only suited to meat production.

I think it isn't local vs global, actually - I think it's buying what makes sense globally - so while the Fife diet was an interesting experiment, I still want to buy mangoes, etc. But I don't want to buy soft fruit out of season - we have the best soft fruit in the world on my doorstep, and it's supporting local farmers who also need to make a living. So I can buy oranges, tea, mangoes etc etc and local produce too, surely?

The thing about the anti-climate changes arguments that bothers me is that are they simply suggesting we do nothing? And why so angry about the steps that are proposed?

Even if man made CO2 isn't a key factor in climate changes, we know that fossil fuels are a finite resource, that they are polluting and that at some point a cleaner and more sustainable technology needs to be found. Plus roads are very busy, old cars and poor infrastructure are very dangerous, esp. in developing countries - here's some scary stats for you - trends in traffic-related mortality in India are are rising rapidly, and globally are predicted by the WHO to rise from 1.2 m in 2002 to 2.1 m in 2030. If you look at maps showing mortality rates from traumatic injury, Africa, India and the Russian federation come off worst, and a high proportion of those are traffic related.

Now, supposing that fossil fuels aren't going to run out for another 100 years - does it not make sense to at least start work on replacing fossil fuels, on making roads less busy by improving mass transportation, etc, on reducing pollutants which contribute to a variety of diseases? So what if climate change did turn out to be not man made - (which I don't adhere to) - the outcomes of responding to it are beneficial anyway.

Oh, I like that YouTube vid. He was doing really well until he did the close-up bit at the end when he became ever so slightly slimey but still, I liked/understood the message. Likening it to buying a lottery ticket - excellent! Even a dip-stick thicko like me gets it!

Habbibu, that's really what motivates me re: the climate stuff or going green or however you want to package it. We're wrecking the world and it's shameful. When you see pictures of millions of dead fish floating on a sea because the ph balance has been altered by man or acres and acreas of scrub where rainforest used to stand....aaaaggghhh, we are an appalling species, we really are.

policywonk -- Oh thank you for posting that about Kyoto being renegotiated. I was afraid to ask .

Wonder if Australia will manage to decrease their C02 emissions, as their target for Kyoto was actually an increase in emissions

Agree with Doodle sentiment. Me and some friends even tried to set up an Eco Mom group, as we all are interested/wishing to be more active, but are in a muddle as to what will be most effective given lack of time, energy, and mobility.

That video is good BIWI - thanks!

Interesting about agricultural policies in developing countries Habb. I think the bottom line is that they need the foreign currency generated by exports - it's the only way they can service their debts.

I do agree with you about buying what makes sense - I found myself picking up a bag of apples in Tesco the other day and noticing that they're from New Zealand - madness when, as you say, we're a perfect apple-growing country.

I can't find the Oxfam page about their campaign now. I think the idea was to reduce your weekly portions of meat/fish by one (meal's worth) and replace that meal with a Fair Trade product from developing countries.

Yes, I too don't really understand why people get so angry about the possibility of doing something about climate change and then finding out that it wasn't necessary. Maybe it's that a lot of environmental policies are essentially a bit lefty (redistributive, anti-consumerist, public sector), and they suspect it's all a big front for socialism?

Frankly, I'm happy with that

ilove, this is a thread for the clueless and the blustering. Do Not Be Afraid.

Maybe you and Doodle should get busy with an online eco-mom thing. I think there is a US group along those lines - here

"it's the only way they can service their debts." Aye, and there is the utter nonsense at the heart - it surely is just stupid to have to think about buying something imported that we could easily grow at home just so the developing country can service its debts to us, and we get the added joy of shipping/air costs in terms of pollution, fossils fuels etc etc etc.

Cart before the horse really doesn't begin to cover it.

But absolutely fair enough to reduce meat consumption - am all for that for many reasons.

I agree that the debt issue is insane habb, but unfortunately it's the reality for a lot of developing countries.

Even beyond the debt issue, most development types believe that (fair) trade is one of the best routes out of poverty.

I don't think Oxfam is advocating buying things that could easily be grown here - they're talking about buying mangos etc (as you said) - stuff that can't be grown here without massive carbon inputs.

I have this dilemma over local vs imported from 3rd world, every time I go to the supermarket.

I always buy local, not just because of the carbon footprint, but also because the farms are probably owned by big, rich people, and the locals are probably paid 2p a day to pick the beans, roses etc. I feel that we are just supporting big business, which has a vested interest in keeping the locals poor.

It also pisses me off how the supermarkets cynically use the Fair Trade and Bio/Organic labels to make people feel good about their shopping, when we have no control over the bulk of what's in our trolleys.

I honestly think that the Fair Trade mark is a reliable one. And it does include provisions about paying workers fairly and investing in their local communities.

Agree that the 'organic' label can be used very broadly and confusingly. I got very irritated by Tesco's 'veg boxes'.

Some interesting Fair Trade FAQs here - look at the section on environment and climate change.

Oh, not disagreeing about the reality, pol - doesn't make it any less bonkers! And yes, I think we're agreeing - that was one of my concerns about strict adherence to the Fife Diet (which I didn't do) - that and there really is only just so much swede I can eat.

Fair Trade mark is good, I think, but it drives me mad that big brands can have one fair trade line - so you know that your other practices are shit, don't you? That is cynical, but it does help to promote the idea, I guess. I still would never buy Fair Trade from Nestle, for example.

Well I would feel happier about fair trade if I met anyone from a 3rd world country who had ever heard of it!

also, was a bit that cadburys went fair trade just when cocoa prices rose. Will they still be fair trade if cocoa prices fall?

Interesting debate in the comments section here re. Fair Trade (the article itself is a bit so-so but the comments are interesting). I agree with the man who says we need to participate in Fair Trade schemes as well as lobbying for much bigger changes further down the line.

I didn't even know that Cadbury's had gone FT - I try to stick to Divine these days after all those stories about chocolate slavery a while back.

Right - apparently the Treasury is about to make its decision about development aid allocation in this year's budget. Please (if you're so inclined) email the Treasury at [email protected], tweet at @HMTreasury or just get in touch with your MP and tell him/her you don't want the development budget cut. The commitments they're supposed to be sticking to are: £7.5bn this year, £9.1bn next year.

For comparison, the government money provided to ease the domestic effects of the credit crunch runs to hundreds of billions.

Have emailed. forgot to copy in MP - will fwd it to Ming.

Talking about eating less meat because veggies are lower carbon - it helps reduce water use, too. The Oxfam guy has a post on "Is the world running out of water?" today.

I wonder how that meshes with Oxfam advising us to buy meat from third world countries where water is at a premium? Or are the meat producing countries not the same as the one where water scarcity is an issue?

And the whole local vs free fair trade thing has always done my head in. Nice to see a discussion.

I'd assumed they meant replace with a meal using any FT product - don't think FT meat really exists, does it? That's was my thinking, anyway, and I can see how that would work.

I can see the point they're making but it's not possible to put together a meal using ft ingredients - at least where I shop (Ocado) - even if you allowed meat.*

I found this:
"So try to buy one of your veg from your global village - a local farmer in Kenya, Zambia, or any other developing country. Your business will be a big benefit to them. And they care just as much about giving you a great product."
here. Do you think that means veg - not just fairtrade? It looks like it, doesn't it? That would be great. I tend to avoid those and try to stay local and in season blah blah blah.

*please note that I only know this because I was going to try it and need to put in a shopping order.

Oh, I see what you're saying - use a FT product in more meals basically?

So there four are:

• more fairtrade
• buy some veg from countries that need the money
• eat less meat
• don't waste food

I think eating local and doing all those is possible. I mean, I eat enough to do all that, certainly [fat pig emoticon].

arghhhhh, their four. I'm losing it, apols.

Well done on finding that page JJ - I've been living on the Oxfam site recently and still couldn't

Interesting link here from Save the Children: DFID wants public input into the next international development White Paper - various venues throughout the country. Does anyone fancy attending the London one on May 5 (or indeed any of the others?)

Do you think we could put together an MN viewpoint on, say, MNH and try to get some signatures for it?

Oh the London one is full - so even better if somebody could make one of the other ones.