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FGM

53 replies

GLaDOS · 21/03/2009 22:59

.

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FAQinglovely · 21/03/2009 23:00

what about it? It's bloody barbaric.........ermm ........

BoysAreLikeDogs · 21/03/2009 23:00

???

GLaDOS · 21/03/2009 23:02

bloody hell that was quick. I'm just creating a space from a different thread Dogs, so as not to hijack it.

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GLaDOS · 21/03/2009 23:02

Post a link to that article please Tattifer.

FAQ, can you also share your sources on FGM.

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FAQinglovely · 21/03/2009 23:03

oh - no this isn't stemmed from that thread is it?

oh bugger - I'm trying to drag myself off MN at the moment to try and get a semblance of housework done and now you start this (I'm already on a benefits/immigrants thread and finding it hard to get away) LOL

FAQinglovely · 21/03/2009 23:04

forwardUK that I mentioned on the other thread.

GLaDOS · 21/03/2009 23:05

I'm off to bed now actually. Just thought it might be more polite

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GLaDOS · 21/03/2009 23:22

FAQ, I can't find where it says "in most parts of Africa they mistakenly believe it promotes cleanliness" on that site.

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GLaDOS · 21/03/2009 23:23

it'sa good site though. Pretty much the consensus on FGM

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MANATEEequineOHARA · 22/03/2009 12:09

Tattifer is busy (in the pub...eating not getting drunk).

So I have just been searching New Internationalist's website, only the April issue is not yet online.

I am feeling a tad traumatised from my search...just putting 'female genital mutilation' into the NI site search and reading the results is quite

tattifer · 22/03/2009 12:49

Ok, largest roast dinner on earth consumed and I'm back.

glados no, unfortunately you're right, you have to subscribe on line to get April's NI. I'll type the relevant bit out for you -

Around 10 years ago, Rabaa [her egyptian neighbour] bundled her girls cheerfully off to their Upper Egyptian hometown, for a combination family reunion and mass circumcsion.
"why put them through it?" I queried. "You know it can be dangerous, and it hurts"
"You're telling me," she said.
"So why?"
"Because we all do it, it's not a big deal. And besdies if you don't, your thing can get as big as a man's,"she said, furtively eyeing the crotch of my jeans.
I didn't dissuade her further - we didn't know each other well then - but even now, I doubt I'd try too hard....How can I judge these people people when they have so graciously avoided judging me?

Its not that I support FGM, but I cannot say the all out condemnation of another culture is acceptable either (over simplifies for sake of not writing whole essay). It smacks of patronising colonial superiority, and probablay a whole lot more other stuff before it even begins to mimic racism.

tattifer · 22/03/2009 12:51

Oh and the author is Maria Golia, writes for The Middle East, reviews for TLS and author of Cairo, City of Sand.

MANATEEequineOHARA · 22/03/2009 12:53

Indeed, it further perpetuates the 'black savages' stereotype, to look at the issue in such a simplistic way.

tattifer · 22/03/2009 12:58

That's what my original reaction was about. The assumption that the ignorant savages needed rescuing from themselves.

As for feminism... why the hell do you think i'm eating a roast down at the pub - cooked by a man!

GLaDOS · 22/03/2009 16:52

Manatee, 'Black savages' or the 'noble savage'? Take your pick, each are just as racist. Finding the middle ground is the interesting bit. But I really doubt it?s a phrase that would ever have been mentioned on here, so I don?t think you need to get angry about it just yet. MN isn?t a political site, it's a parental support site and isn't known for its bigots. People struggle with complex concepts, at times clumsily, but that is hardly a crime and out and out racism is very very rare, which is something that?s seldom celebrated.

Tattifer, I?m a bit confused at to your argument ? it?s not that you ?agree? with FGM, it?s what ? that you don?t think it?s a misogynous practice? I have to agree with Dittany on this one, something that doesn?t happen often, but its pretty conclusive.

I guess from that quote you posted, the most relevant thing for you is the "How can I judge these people when they have so graciously avoided judging me?"

This is understandable, up to a limit. It's just not polite to criticise individuals who you have a complex and interdependent relationship with, when they are doing you a favour by showing you their way of life. It's quite another thing to do the observation bit (hopefully with a broader scope too) deal examine the subjective emotions it throws up, then chart the objective findings and then draw conclusions about what appear to be explicitly oppressive facets of a given culture, home or away. It?s only that objectivity that will save you from falling for either the ?black savage? or ?noble savage? fallacies.

What the woman seems to be describing is the power of tradition. This is also what personal testimony?s of victims of FGM acknowledge. The mothers and grandmothers were mutilated themselves, they accepted their lot and lived with the consequences. It?s an interesting subjective insight but it tells us little about the real function of FGM. There has been a lot of work on this. What seems to be the primary function of FGM is to ensure bride price by guaranteeing virginity. This is why the vagina is sewn up after cutting, the ?infibulation?. This is a new husbands guarantee of his new wife?s chastity. The first night of marriage is taken up in him breaking through the stitches ? an excruciating experience for the new wife obviously. It is this experience that produces the blood on the sheets, not the romantic myth of hymen breaking, which produces nominal amounts of blood, if any, on average.

But the story goes even deeper into our histories than this as men have attempted to control female autonomy over the sexuality and best guarantee paternity since the dawn of our species, and this ?evolutionary arms race? is manifest in our bodies and our psychologies. FGM, is one of the very few things that is unarguably misogynous in nature ? that?s a word that I think is very much overused ? but which is perfectly apt in issues pertaining to FGM.

The writer doesn?t need to judge the individuals if she doesn?t want to ? though I wonder if she would have felt differently had she accompanied the family on their ?cheerful? jaunt towards infibulation. Their rationalisations may tell us a lot about the cultural brutalisation of women. The practice however, can most certainly be judged and on many levels. There is nothing racist about believing in universal human rights and actually, cultural relativism (one rule for you, another privileged one for me) may very well be racist.
I?d recommend you read Hirsi Ali?s book.

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hatwoman · 22/03/2009 17:02

and just to add to GLaDOS - white/western europeans don't have the monopoloy on opposing female cutting. and to think they do is pretty racist.

GLaDOS · 22/03/2009 17:26

Infibulation

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tattifer · 22/03/2009 18:56

hatwoman nobody suggested they did.

"men have attempted to control female autonomy over the sexuality and best guarantee paternity since the dawn of our species"

Crikey, apart from the biological imperative found in every species I think the broad brush approach (if we're going for accuracy) has to stop there. Various organised religions across the globe have, at various times throughout history used all kinds of reasons to keep the majority of women out of positions of influence and power in their communities. In christian society the goal wasn't merely control over paternity or bloodlines but more often about power - on a local political level as well as a national one. This goes on for centuries in many guises, in many clultures. To simply label one symptom, one manifestation of this as misogynistic is in the true meaning of the word, naive.

GLaDOS · 22/03/2009 20:06

That's not a broad brush. That's the consensus within ethology.

You keep saying things like 'mearly', when such issues are moot. I am not asserting that anything is 'mearly' anything. If you object to people misconstruing what you say, e.g. with Hat, then try not to do it to others.

What I am talking about are proximate and ultimate explanations; proximate explanations take us into culture, power games, etc - but there is a hole other world beyond proximate explanations when you answer the question of 'how' and then ask 'why'.

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GLaDOS · 22/03/2009 20:09

proximate and ultimate causation look on the ethology para

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tattifer · 22/03/2009 20:17

Are you suggesting that men hate women being the
that misogyny is a specific behavioural trait?

And I never object to anyone misconstring me - you're merely reading something into my responses that isn't there.

tattifer · 22/03/2009 20:18

I'll rewrite that, had a malfunction - are you suggesting that misogyny is a specific behavioural trait?

tattifer · 22/03/2009 20:25

"it's a parental support site and isn't known for its bigots"

Now that is naive albeit condescendingly. Check out the sound of baying hounds on one of the other threads.

But we all agree that fgm is neither pleasant nor necessary right?

GLaDOS · 22/03/2009 20:30

Specific behavioral triat? Do you mean an adaptation?

If so, could you call 'hate' per se an adaption? Direct or by-product? Does it exhibit functional design?

What is 'hate'? Is it fear? Misogyny is a facet of 'hate' just as misanthropy is. It may not be adaptive in todays culture or extreme hatred it may be a pathological expression. That's a very complicated question. Hate most definiely is a regognised emotional state that all humans, in all cultures are capable of feeling - which would point to being an adaptation, though whether it is direct or a by product it woiuld be hard (for me) to say.

So 'hate' is a specific behavioral triat - or a psycholgical one anyway. If that's what your asking..

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tattifer · 22/03/2009 20:34

Hate/fear/distrust al of the above - those would defnitely be driving forces behind say, the burning of witches.

Would persecution be an interesting word to throw into the conversation?