Gender stereotyping and toys

[Starling]

My friend has a 4 year old son who will be starting school in September. He is very keen on Barbie and has a Barbie of his own. On a recent shopping trip for trainers, he was smitten with a pair of Barbie trainers. He has also seen a Barbie lunchbow at nursery school and is desperate to have one.
his mum says that he is interested in all things pink and glittery, not just Barbie.
Her dilemma is that, being aware of how older children might react when her son starts school, she did not feel able to buy him the shoes or the lunchbox, but could not explain to him why this was.
Whilst I understand her point (and personally I cannot abide Barbie anyway) I think it's really sad that she had to make this decision. What do others think? And how have other parents dealt with similar situations?

Starling, I personally think the little boy should be allowed to express himself. It is indeed sad that his mother feels that she has to 'protect' him in this way. There is far to much conforming and in conforming the myth continues that all boys like x and all girls like z and never shall the two intertwine.

Children can be cruel it is a fact of life. If it is not boys liking pink, its not having the 'right' trainers, having glasses, red hair or being fat etc., etc., I wonder how many people who advocate not allowing his having Barbie things would propose that 'fat' children diet, red haired children dye their hair, spectacled children wear contact lenses etc., etc.? Being allowed to express himself the little boy will make up his own mind and grow out of it (or not) but trying to stop him may, however well intentioned, simply cause more problems.

I wonder whether the decision is as much about what other parents think as how other children will treat him(?). Maybe if little boys and little girls were able to express themselves(even when their enjoyment manifests itself in something not considered appropriate in wider society) these bizarre ideas of what is 'normal' would perhaps be broken down.

P.S I personally loathe Barbie dolls!

Winnie, I can see where you are coming from, but few children are perfect specimens, are they? Red hair, glasses, being fat etc are far more commonplace amongst children than boys in Barbie trainers. Also it's a one-minute decision to buy or not to buy a pair of barbie trainers. It's not half as hard as insisting that your 4-year old goes on a long term diet or gets used to inserting contact lenses, for instance. Anyway that's a bit off the point.

Protecting your child from the reaction of his classmates,to my mind at least, does not mean refusing him all barbie stuff. It means preparing him so he knows without a shadow of a doubt that on his big first day at school, other barbie-wearing classmates are likely to be girls. And he has already seen what girls and boys at his school wear. And if, say, he wears his barbie stuff to a childrens playground beforehand, he'll have some idea of other children's reaction to him. If he still then insists on barbie, fair enough, but at least if he's then teased at school, it won't come as a complete surprise. And perhaps packing a spare pair of trainers, for instance, to give him the option to change if he wants to on the day. Or giving him a bit of barbie, ie socks, to begin with and if he he's OK about the school reactions, then giving him trainers a week or so into term. That to me is what protecting him really means.

Yes, of course he should be allowed to express himself for all the reasons you mention. But I think he should be given as much knowledge as possible, too, otherwise we are trying to impose our own liberal views on a child at a very vulnerable time.

Yeah very true Tigermoth, it's a case of liberal mindedness and shunning of stereotypes is fine, but meanwhile back in the real world....I do regret to say that but it's true.

It's such a shame in this society of ours that barbie trainers can cause such an issue, where as in certain other countries any trainers would be welcome for any child pink or not. Sorry, going off the subject AGAIN... ( but it's such a meaty issue, so much to go into...!)

I really hope that my sons will always feel that they can express themselves in whichever way they wish. I'm have a very wishy, washy liberal 'whatever' attitude to most things / have many gay friends and abhor prejudice of any kind BUT I was bullied at school and it was horrible and I honestly think that if my boys wanted something which might attract the attentions of bullies then I would probably persuade them against it (whether it's barbie trainers or something else.)
I'm afraid it doesn't matter how PC you might be....kids can be cruel, and the playground isn't always the nice place it should be.

Tigermoth, I do agree with you that children need to be armed with information before being let out into what is new territory for them. Yes, starting school is indeed a very vulnerable time for them (and us).You are quite right in advocating a third way. I hope I wouldn't be so naive as to think that my children never needed some protection. Children grow up so very fast in todays world. However,I then have to wonder how we change such deeply entrenched ideas if we are not prepared to allow our own children to stand out and be 'different', aren't we simply sending out extremely mixed messages and confusing things further? In my experience - limited as it may be - children handle the truth much better than a conspiracy of silence and half truths, even when the truth is not particularly pleasant. I don't advocate telling children 'everything', of course children should be allowed a childhood, but issues such as this can be explained in simple terms. I would hope that a happy, secure child would be much better equipped to deal with the ups and downs of life - that hit everyone whatever their age - than a child confused by the mixed messages he/she is receiving from their guardians/parents.

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I agree with you both Jbr and Rhiannon. It annoys me that we think there is something wrong with males wanting to like feminine things but girls can be masculine and they are labelled a "tomboy". If we want to tackle this gender stereotyping properly then the people who make these products should stop making glittery pink things for girls and khaki coloured items/guns etc for boys. However there is no incentive for this - it is all to do with money and there is big money in Barbie, Bob the Builder etc.

I hate Barbie myself and I'd not buy my child male or female it and I'd just say no because I'd tell him/her that it was too expensive. This sidesteps any issue about whether the child should have it or not because it is male or female. If the child really wanted it then he/she could save for it out of pocket money/birthday money, by then they'd have probably changed their mind. I feel too many kids get what they want on a whim these days.

Speaking of gays - I do know a few and one thing I don't like is some gay types who like to idealise women in frilly dresses, loads of make-up and high heels. I think this comes out of repression and that some males do like these things. Maybe we should return to the 18th century of dandies when men could dress up more. I just wish that the feminine side of women was emphasised more (ie the nurturing side) rather than the rather trivial aspect of what kind of clothes they wear. Also it is insulting to women that their clothes are "funny" just because a man wears them. I don't mean pantomime costumes though - they are funny on a male or female. Maybe it is just because some women's clothes are silly anyway. My husband thinks that basques/stockings etc look really stupid (on a woman that is). Perhaps it is because 'men's 'clothes are generally more functional that they can be worn by either gender.

I would applaud anyone to be different and not go down the happy little consumer track of buying what toy producers want them to, wearning sports clothes, eating microwave meals etc etc. Anyway going off the subject somewhat here ....

I have a confession to make... I would never, never allow my children to 'express themselves' with toy guns!!! I know, hypocritical after all I wrote earlier, but we are all human.

Starling, why not suggest to your friend that she buys her son a 'non-Barbie' lunchbox to start school with. Then she could tell him that she will buy him a Barbie one in a few weeks - if he still wants one after a month of being at 'big' school, good luck to him!

Winnie.....me too. And after all I said earlier as well. so much for easy going.

Winnie, Twinsmum, and me. Guns, urgh. Are you not relieved that there is no male equivalent of that nightmare emporium "Girl Heaven"? Can you imagine what a cynical marketing team would try and cram into an outlet called "Boy Hell"? Camouflage paint, plastic limpet mines, magnifying glasses to frizzle ants perhaps?
Eulalia, Robinw and anyone else - did you see the Rod Stewart documentary last night? Now there's a man who's been round the block several 100 times with various "living Barbies", and the amount of make-up, frilly shirts, women's knickers and gorgeous necklaces he has worn over the years was really quite staggering. DH expressed the opinion that surely Rod Stewart must be bisexual, purely on the basis of reviewing his 80s wardrobe from twenty years on. I on the other hand thought how refreshingly colourful and attractive, and cheerfully self-confident old Rod looked, particularly compared to latter-day lads like the Gallaghers. Let's bring back dandyism for men, why should they be stuck with boring stiff fabrics? If lots more men who wanted to, felt able to dress up like Rod or Eddie Izzard, wouldn't all our big cities look more entertaining? None of which helps Starling's young friend cope with big school and a pink lunchbox. No chance she could get him a plainish one and they could customise the inside with Barbie stickers?

I think Robinw has a good point. Surely the point of all this Action Man/Barbie stuff is that girls are supposed to want to be the girliest and boys the most manly at this age. But not all children pass through the same phase at the same age. There are bound to be some precocious little boys who are attracted to feminine things from an early age simply because they are heterosexual. I can see the point about wanting little boys and little girls to have a clear idea of their gender (this is a different issue from the homosexuality question) because gender is something you can't change (without a lot of problems!) so it's best to live the best life you can with the gender you've got if at all possible. But frankly, I don't think my children need Barbie or Action Man to help them grow into good women/men.
I agree with the attitudes expressed by Tigermoth and others, but I thought the best suggestion was to buy him another lunch box and promise a Barbie one at the end of his first term - that way he'll know what the score is.

Good news, anti-gender-stereotyping-people! Girl Heaven (Bluewater) has closed down.

Marina, speaking as someone who has a garage stuffed full of men's (and women's) 60's 70's and 80's clothing, I have ample proof of how dandy-looking men were, back then. But some men still carry the torch. I used to run a clothes stall and oh, the times I had to help big hairly male Australians and Americans find an outfit for a 70's club night! What they were prepared to squeeze into beggers belief. You have not lived until you have helped a big 46" chest man wriggle into a size 16 womans shirt (good old stretchy nylon). I never, ever helped them into the trousers, though.
I just couldn't get enough frilly shirts, mens flares, etc to meet demand. And those men were such a soft touch, too. No haggling, they used to pay and walk away in a daze with the all the lurid stuff that none of my female shoppers would buy.

And then there were the retro clothing stallholders themselves. Dedicated followers of fashion, to a man. Some gay, some not. Together we used to drool over vintage Ozzy Clarke and Biba. None of them into barbie though!

Then, at the last company christmas party I went to, all the men were resplendent in brightly coloured shirts, ties and waistcoats, while the women sported little black dresses.

I too hate barbie and action man for the reasons Eulalia and others mention. Anyone else heard what happened in America a few years ago? A subversive group secretly swapped the voice boxes of talking barbies and action men. So action man said 'please take me shopping' while barbie said 'mobilise all units, we are on the attack'.

This is an interesting board. Its taken me a while to think where I stand on this. I believe that men and women are different and I think as our science progresses we are becoming more aware of how profound those differences are. In the womb there are major hormonal changes going on to make your baby a boy or a girl and this doesn't just affect their physical make up it also affects their mental wiring. However, just because men and women are different does not mean that we cannot be equal in status, although anthropological studies suggest that this is rarely the case both historically and in different societies today.
As far as letting my son wear Barbie trainers is concerned I would probably discourage him. I would probably discourage him from wearing a hairband or bracelets too. My reasons would be that at the age of 4 children need guidance from their parents as to appropriate clothing. I would also discourage my 4 year old from wearing a swimsuit in winter or a thick coat in summer. I would also be reluctant to let them wear a t-shirt that said "Kick me" on the back of it etc. etc. So I would worry about my 4 year old boy in his Barbie trainers being teased mercilessly.
It would be great if we lived in a world where gender based clothing didn't exist but it does and my first concern would be to help my child make the best choice for him.

Tigermoth, triple laughs all round - goodbye Girl Heaven and good riddance, I do remember that fantastic Action Man/Barbie soundtrack switch tale (and is the one about the American Tinky Winky allegedly saying, "I'm a fag" also true I wonder), and surely your boys must have the best dressing up box EVER. Wasn't fashion tactile and gorgeous 20-30 years ago?
Starling, you will have to tell us how your friend handled the issue in the end as there are a lot of mums out there worried as to whether he'll be OK in that playground. Not to mention wondering what we'd do ourselves, I still cannot make up my mind.

Marina, if my boys ever become interested in dressing up, yes I am a number one mum in this respect. So far, my oldest son has treated my erstwhile business and on-going hobby with great distain. The only 2 things he has ever craved from my 'collection' were 1: A tiger print vest so he could be Tarzan and 2: An old Rebok T shirt, because it had a sports logo. Men huh!

Mind you, I once had in my possession a Queen Elizabeth 1 costume, complete with ruffle, made for Peter 0'Tool. My husband tried it on for a laugh and completely fell in love with it and begged me to not to part with it. Lured him off it with promises of a vintage Levi Jacket.

Sex is the natural make up of your body and gender is the things that are imposed on you relating to your sex, eg men are providers and women don't/shouldn't work for instance. (just one example I could come up with!) That isn't natural, it is the way things are constructed. Masculine and feminine are not essential qualities to men and women, they are just the constructions which change depending on your society or country. I hope that makes some sense to someone! I know what I mean anyway.

These late nights are turning my brain to soggy cabbage!

I'm really suprised about Girl Heaven. Although there are some strong views expressed here...I think in general there are many, many mums who absolutely love all that stuff. I have a wonderful, wonderful friend (who disagrees with me on most things) who will be devastated when I tell her. Not only is her little girl dressed head to toe in pink frill....she has ditched her former fairly formal style, and now spends most of her days skipping round in a huge selection of glitzy hair slides!

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Tomboy?? Another silly label, given to girls who act like boys, whatever that means, as though there is some natural way girls and boys will act. Everyone is an individual!