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Why is it that people are so obsessed with testing for Downs syndrome, when there are so many other disabilities which cannot be tested for, that are far, far worse?

1005 replies

wannaBe · 15/09/2008 16:50

It baffles me.

When we fall pregnant we are offered tests, and scans, most, although not all of which relate to the detection of Downs Syndrome.

At 12 weeks we are offered a nuchal fold scan to determine the likelyhood of the baby having downs, and women over 35 are routinely offered anmio to detect whether the baby has downs.

92% of pregnancies where Downs is detected are terminated .

And yet there are lots of other disabilities, such as cerebral palsy, autism, other disabilities which cause learning difficulties, which cannot be detected in utero, but which can be much, much worse than downs.

So what is it about Downs that is so scary?

Or would people have far more stressful pregnancies if all disabilities could be tested for, and would they feel that they had to be sure their baby would be perfect?

OP posts:
Thomcat · 17/09/2008 23:19

And as a parent to a DD with DS the fact that "It's not that its more scary than other disabilities just that it's testable for" is what I find tough sometimes.

Just becasue it can be tested for does it mean it should be????

Would we all be better off not knowing?

Imagine how many more people with DS there would be in the world.
Imagine.
I think it'd be a far nicer world to live in.
I really, really do.

Thomcat · 17/09/2008 23:22

Hi Heated.
Yeah exactly, they are fears that in reality don't exist. And that's my proble. People get scared at the if's, but's maybe's, what if's etc. They get scared and frightened off. The reality is far, fra different. You have a child, they have SN's, you love them all the same, you get on with the day to day living. End of. Nothing scary about any of it. My life is very, very normal and very unscary!

Heated · 17/09/2008 23:24

Think I got this view from the press. Stories either read as endlessly fighting for support/the right care (which is grim) or, those that are happy are some kind of saintly, mother earth figures (which I'm not & can't identify with)

Thomcat · 17/09/2008 23:30

By Simon Barnes - parent to Eddie who has Down's syndrome:

The human imagination can do many extraordinary things. But we can?t imagine love. Or perhaps I mean loving: love as a continuous state; one that carries on in much the same way from day to day, changing and growing with time just as people do.

We can imagine dramas and turmoil. People make films about them. In our own minds, we often put together the most terrific stories about thrilling or devastating events that might befall us. But what no one can imagine is the day-to-day process of living with things and getting on with the humdrum job of loving. We can imagine only the beautiful and the terrible. We are drama queens, and our imaginations are incapable of giving us any help about coping from day to day. Marriage is not the same as falling in love; nor is it an endless succession of terrible rows and monumental reconciliations: it is about a million small things: things beyond our imagining.

So no, I couldn?t imagine what it was like to live with a child who had Down?s syndrome. I could imagine only the dramatic bits: the difficulties, the people in public places turning away in shock and distaste, the awfulness of a child who couldn?t say his own name.

I could speculate on the horrors of living with a child who could not do a thousand things. I could create a dramatic picture of life with a monster. But I could not imagine what it was like to live with Eddie. You know, from day to day.

That doesn?t make Eddie unique. I couldn?t imagine what it would be like exchanging a childless life for life with Joe. I don?t think anybody can do that sort of thing: it?s not what the human imagination does. You imagine bits that make you proud and bits that make you fearful. You can imagine reading him the Narnia stories, reading his glowing school reports, watching him score the winning goal and hearing the applause after his solo at the school concert. But you lack the machinery for imagining the routine of living with a child who grows up with you.

The fact is that nothing to do with love seems so terribly difficult when you get down to it. Nothing seems an impossible demand on your time, your resources, your patience, your temper, your abilities: not because you connect with your inner saintliness but because you just find yourself getting on with it: muddling through. Most non-parents imagine that they could never change a nappy. Then parenthood happens and they do it. It was the same thing when it came to living with Eddie. It?s just parenthood: everyone who has done it knows it.

So Eddie lived, and lives: burly and merry and, on the whole, pretty healthy. And once the surgery was done and the emergencies and dramas were over, it was time to get on with the business of living. And that is really rather an easy business. You live one day, and then you live the next.

It?s not a matter of they, it?s a matter of him. I don?t have a child with Down?s syndrome: I am Eddie?s father. There is a huge difference between the two things. The first is almost impossible to deal with, the second is the way I live from day to day. I don?t even think about it much.

Parenthood is not really about the traditional round-robin Christmas letter: Jasper is school captain and is having trials for Middlesex at both cricket and rugby and played Hamlet in the school play of the same name, while Oxford and Cambridge have both offered scholarships. He has just passed grade ten on the cello. Parenthood is not about perfection, it?s much more interesting than that: it?s about making the best of what you have. Define best, then? Do that for yourself, but I?ll give you a clue: if you think it?s all about A levels, you?re on the wrong track.

So my task, then, is to bring the best out of Eddie. That is unlikely to involve A levels. I know that there will be many harder things to face as he grows older. No doubt we will take these things in the order in which they come. We can imagine a few horrors, of course, but we will live through the actual events day by day. And we will continue with other important tasks such as giggling and playing ball and providing hats and dealing with a world that can?t imagine the dreadful fate of being a parent to a child with Down?s syndrome.

What is it like to have Down?s syndrome? How terrible is it? Is it terrible at all? It depends, I suppose, on how well loved you are. Like most other conditions of life. Would I want Eddie changed? It?s a silly question but it gets to the heart of the matter. Of course you?d want certain physical things changed: the narrow tubes that lead to breathing problems, for example. But that?s not the same as ?changed?, is it? If you are a parent, would you like the essential nature of your child changed? If you were told that pressing a button would turn him into an infant Mozart or Einstein or van Gogh, would you press it? Or would you refuse because you love the person who is there and real, not some hypothetical other?

I can?t say I?m glad that Eddie has Down?s syndrome, or that I would wish him to suffer in order to charm me and fill me with giggles. But no, I don?t want his essential nature changed. Good God, what a thought. It would be as much a denial of myself as a denial of my son. What?s the good of him, then? Buggered if I know. The never-disputed terribleness of Down?s syndrome is used as one of the great justifications for abortion: abortion has to exist so that we don?t people the world with monsters. I am not here to talk about abortion ? but I am here to tell you that Down?s syndrome is not an insupportable horror for either the sufferer or the parents. I?ll go further: human beings are not better off without Down?s syndrome.

A chance gathering in my kitchen: three people. My wife, who has some gypsy blood. Eddie. A friend who is Jewish. And the realisation that, under Hitler, all three would have been bound for the ovens. Down?s syndrome, any more than Jewishness or gipsyhood, is not something that needs to be wiped out for the good of humanity. Down?s syndrome is not the end of the world. In fact, for me it was the beginning of one.

I am not here to make judgments on those who have gone for termination, being unwilling to cope with something that they could not imagine. I am here to tell everybody that Eddie is my son and he?s great.

I have a life that a lot of people envy. Mostly they envy my job: I am chief sports writer of The Times, and people say: you?re going to the World Cup, you?re going to the Olympic Games, you lucky thing. Can I come? I?ll carry your bags.

I live in a nice house in the country, I keep five horses and as a family we are comfortably off. For all these things people envy me. But I have a child with Down?s syndrome and for that, people pity me. And I am here to say: wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I am not to be pitied but to be envied.

FairLadyRantALot · 17/09/2008 23:38

Thomcat, thank you for posting that!

Thomcat · 17/09/2008 23:39

Sorry, epic cut and paste section, but he just says it all sooooo well.

Yes you do have to fight for stuff sometimes, but it's not endless. And putting up a bit of a fight and getting what your child rightly deserved feels great. And you're never alone. You meet others who've been there and done that. And you'd no anything for your child right so filling out a form and doing a bit of fighting is just all in a days work.

Doing endless washing, drying, folding and putting away of 3 small peoples clothes is far more daunting!

If at a every women's pregnancy each parent to be was taken into a side room in hospital, sat down and spoken to in a worried manner by a white coated professional, and told of all the things that could go wrong, all the possible health problems that could come up with their child, and were they sure they wanted to go ahead, would they rather not just terminate, it'd be a much smaller world!

Imagine it "Now Mr & Mrs Smith, I'm afraid it's a possibility your son may struggle at school, it's likely he'll get bullied and he may well try and end his own life on several occasion. Then when he hits puberty it is likely that he will get into a gang and take drugs and there is a strong possibility he will either get stabbed or stab someone else. If he does survive this he will more than likely end up in a dead end job, marry someone you despise and eventually he may well end on anti depressants and very possibly addicted to some kind of drug or alcohol."

Thomcat · 17/09/2008 23:42

Here's the full article by Simon Barnes

jimjamshaslefttheyurt · 17/09/2008 23:47

fivecandles. I've taught A level Biology to a VI student. It really wasn't a huge deal for me or her. I do apologise as I thought you were saying that translating stuff into braille was a big deal for the teacher rather than talking from the student's perspective. Anyway the student talked quite a lot about her disability as it was recently acquired and said that she didn't intend to get in the way of anything. She was living in a foreign country (opposite way round country-wise to you wannabe ironically) - in London, doing fine. Of course others find the transition harder, but I think its dangerous to assume that the majority find it hard. That's not been my experience.

My point about depression etc is that research shows that an acquired disability decreases levels of happiness for a short period but then those levels return remarkably quickly to pre-disability levels. That's not my opinion. That is research. Of course that is at a population, not individual level. Something like acquiring a disability is of course going to make someone vulnerable to depression, but whether they develop depression as a result of that trigger has more to do with 1) genetics and 2) social support systems than the actual life event itself. I have never been remotely depressed. I put this down to 1) depression - no-one in my immediate family has ever been depressed and 2) I have a very strong social support system. 2) is the reason I immediately suggest to someone going through an unusual or difficult time to seek out someone else in the same situation- it's a great buffer and help- and provides excellent social support.

jimjamshaslefttheyurt · 17/09/2008 23:51
  1. genetics of course.
eidsvold · 18/09/2008 07:28

1.) Nearly half of people with DS have heart defects which may be serious. May need heart surgery on a baby.

* actually it is 2/3 of people who have ds also have a heart defect - the most common the one my daughter has which has a success rate of 95%. Now that they will actually offer cardiac surgery to children with ds. Dd1 had two open heart operations at 8 weeks old - either she has surgery or we watch her die.

2.) Gut problems and problems with vision etc.

My dh is so short sighted it is crazy - dd1 has no gut issues or vision issues. Gosh lots of people in the population have sight or gut problems.

3.) Learning difficulties.

Again - the spectrum of ds is huge. There are some children who progress and develop within the 'normal' parameters.

4.) What happens after the death of a parent if not independent?

Actually the majority of people with ds have the capacity to live independently If they are not able to do so then parents are making special provisions for their children. There is certainly no expectation that the other dds have a duty to care for dd1.

5.) Lower life expectancy

Actually now that people with ds are being offered cardiac surgery and appropriate medical care they have a very good life expectancy

6.) Possible issues with finding appropriate school and childcare

dd1 had no problem with attending mainstream nursery. Dd1 is now in mainstream school.

7.) Lack of support

Actually had pretty good support.

8.) Problems with other people's prejudice and attitudes.

well some people are arses and will never change their attitude and you live with ignorance for a number of situations. Others you may have more success with. You learn to surround your child with people who value and enhance your child's life rather than view her as less than worthy.

9.) Impact on siblings and family life.

Can't comment - no negative impact here.

sarah293 · 18/09/2008 07:56

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sarah293 · 18/09/2008 08:12

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FioFio · 18/09/2008 08:39

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jimjamshaslefttheyurt · 18/09/2008 08:56

'Likewise the student at my college who has to have 24 hr nursing and be put on the toilet with a hoist and two adult members of staff.'

This does sound rather as if you're judging her as being unable to have a decent quality of life. You're taking a very 'normal' viewpoint about what makes a good quality of life. My son is severely disabled, there are many thing he will never be able to do and as I have stated before he will require 24 hour care for the rest of his life. Supported living will not be an option for him. However, recently we were up on the middle of Dartmoor - my favourite place in the world - and I looked across at him - and he was getting as much pleasure from being there as I was. He was in the same place as me, having the same sort of experience as me. And that is what life is about- experiences- who am I to judge what's worthy or not?

Likewise last weekend- surfing- it was a wonderful experience. The party atmosphere made it more than just surfing - it was one of the best experiences of my life - and I've travelled and done quite a lot of exciting stuff. BUt when I'm old and looking back on my life I won't remember bungy jumping, or getting a PHd, or getting into Oxford or getting my first job, or working in Japan or any of the other 'normal' things that supposedly make up a great quality of life. I will remember a beach full of learning disabled kids having a fabulous time surfing. And how we all shared the same experience.

No doubt there's someone somewhere insisting that they have a terrible quality of life as some are in nappies, and some can't say their name or I love you (that seems to be a big one for people they want a child who will say I love you mummy- they don't seem to realise that is something that doesn't need to be said to be understood.) BUt they're wrong. BUt they've misunderstood something fundamental about life imo.

And luckily i'm now off to work.

FioFio · 18/09/2008 09:19

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expatinscotland · 18/09/2008 10:02

'I dont think it has even entered her head that alot of non disabled people are incontinent '

She's lucky she never had any damage in childbirth. There are plenty of women on here who've been left incontinent and even had to use colostomy bags after childbirth.

Not to mention it's common enough for men and women as they age, and can be permanent in men who've had prostate cancer or prostatectomy for other reasons.

FioFio · 18/09/2008 11:13

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wannaBe · 18/09/2008 11:30

I was having this conversation in rl this morning, with another mum who is pg and told me that her tripple test result had come back as 1 in 126 for ds. She is only 27 so this is considered a high risk result for her apparently. Anyway, when talking to the midwife about what to do the midwife said to her that if she didn't know if she could terminate if the baby had downs then there was, in her opinion, no point in having the test because either way she will have to give birth to the baby, and better that she give birth to a baby at full term who may have downs (but they won't know) and will have a decent life than to terminate a much wanted baby and still have to go through the process of labour and birth. Amen to that.

OP posts:
pagwatch · 18/09/2008 11:32

aw wannabe
interesting post but somehow I had hoped that the thread would finish with

"she is an ignorant twat"

seemed strangely apt to me

wannaBe · 18/09/2008 11:33

"she is an ignorant twat"

OP posts:
pagwatch · 18/09/2008 11:39
Grin
Woooozle100 · 18/09/2008 11:45

hehe

I completely agree with op. Certainly don't understand why DS is such a big deal. I don't wish to sound flippant or trite - obv there are challenges and differences but there is being a parent full stop. I'm finding these 'normal' 'healthy' baby types fookin hard work. In fact, I don't know whats hit me having a ds WITHOUT a chromo abnormality

SixSpotBurnet · 18/09/2008 11:48

"So the fact that you have a happy life is lovely but is entirely irrelevant for someone else making her own decision about whether to go through with a pregnancy for example."

I was very struck by this remark of fivecandles'.

HOW is it irrelevant? If I had known before I gave birth to DS3 that he would be quite severely autistic, then jimjams' experience, views, feelings and emotions would have been anything BUT irrelevant to me. How could it be otherwise? And yes, obviously I would also listen to any parent of a child with severe autism who said: "Listen, it's hell. You'll never cope. Have a termination." But why is the second view more relevant than the first, happier one?

pagwatch · 18/09/2008 11:54

I think the second view is more relevent if it confirms your preconceptions. And if the people I meet are typical then 90% of outsiders assume my life is hellish.
It isn't . It is just my life. And I am happier than most people I meet but they mostly don't see that. Which is pretty funny really when you think about it.
They are so determined to believe that my life is hellish that their opinion over rides my actual experince.
hmm - now where have i seen that played out

SixSpotBurnet · 18/09/2008 12:04

And honestly - what would be harder to live with - having an autistic child who, obviously, does bring a fair bit of worry, stress and anxiety into my life - although a lot of that is battling to get him what he needs - but also brings huge amounts of joy, love, tenderness and delight to all of us, not just me?

Or to have a termination of a much wanted baby on the grounds s/he has a diability and that "Oh I couldn't cope!" and have to deal with that loss for ever?

I am completely a supporter of a woman's right to choose, by the way - I think that no woman should have to bear a baby that she doesn't want - but to me the idea of terminating a baby which is viable, but disabled, raises a different set of issues, which are simply not discussed enough in our society at present.

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