What would you have done?

[Ghosty]

I just wanted a viewpoint about something I saw today and what I should have done about it, if anything ...
I was just coming home from taking DS to Kindergarten and was stopped at a redlight at a busy intersection. I was listening to my radio and looking around (as you do) when I noticed the car in the lane next to me ...
In it were three women - a driver, a front passenger, and a back passenger. They looked like grandmother (75ish), mother (50ish) and daughter (25ish)...
There was also a baby ... about 6 weeks old I guessed ... who was obviously much loved judging by the kisses she was getting by the oldest of the three ladies ...
The thing was that this baby was being held freely in the FRONT PASSENGER seat!!! Being cuddled and kissed and jiggled up and down etc.

I was gobsmacked ... I have seen young children in cars not strapped in before and been horrified, but I was incensed by this blatant disregard for the safety of a tiny baby.

I tried to attract there attention by waving and pointing and when one of the women saw me she ignored me. I was just about to get out of my car and go over to them when the lights changed and they drove away ... turning in a different direction to me ...

I have not been able to stop thinking about it all day ... going from wanting to follow them and try and find them to wanting to phone the police to just plain rage!

What would you have done if you had seen that? And what should I have done? I am feeling very guilty that I didn't do anything ...

I've seen this too. This makes me so angry. I would have phoned the police. I don't know how to say this without upsetting people, but there is a "type" of person who does this, usually scum of the earth. You have to be careful, I wouldnt say anything as they are the sort to get out of the car and hit you, or worse. Can you remember their car reg no? If so phone the police and ask them to investigate it.

What is the view of the law on this? Do babies HAVE to have seats until what age? Or is it we just do it, as we try to protect our children as best we can? I don't know what the law says.

Hi Gosh2
Well, I thought that in New Zealand the law on this subject is similar to the UK ... not that I know exactly what that is ...
I do know that children here are not allowed to sit in the front seat (even with a car seat) until they are 8.
The thing is that it was obvious that this was a treasured and much loved baby ... So why put her life in danger in that way ... they didn't seem to be 'scum of the earth' ... nice car ... fairly well dressed women etc.
I didn't get the reg number and I don't have a mobile phone ... if I had I would have phoned the cops then and there ...
Thanks for replying BTW ...

Crikey - this report says that 14% 0f 0-4's travelling in cars in New Zealand are unrestrained, and 1% are held on other passengers knees. It's obviously quite common - though also apparently illegal.

Wow GillW ... you clever thing!
But that report was 5 years ago ... I wonder whether people are more vigilant about their children's safety now?
I just would NEVER EVER let DS go unrestrained! We have gone backwards and forwards between the UK and here 3 times in the last year and have lugged our car seat with us everytime ... I wouldn't even take a short taxi ride with him without his booster seat ...
Some people are just mad aren't they ...

Have to argue the point on the scum of the earth - around here the kids (albeit not babies) that seem to be standing between the seats and kneeling up against the back seats, waving out the back window seem to be in Saabs, Mercedes and Land Rovers - surely if you can afford these cars and care to get one with good safety records you can afford car seats and you should use the fitted restraints.
Don't know how I would react in your situation, probably exactly the same as you - at the end of the day it would be their own baby they would be killing and they would have to live with that on their conscience - sounds harsh but it would serve them right!!

The problem is that people are so ill informed that they think they would be able to hold onto the child if there was an accident. And it is impossible to do, due to the laws of physics. I had a row with my mother about this. She old me that Dd would be happier n her lap, as she had an upset tummy. We were driving down the M4 at the time, and I lost my temper. At the end of the argument Dd was still safely in her car seat, but mm neverbelieved me when I told her that she would be unable to hold onto a small baby in a 10 mph shunt.

I sometimes wonder whether the heavily marketed safety features of executive family cars (your car, your fortress etc) makes some people imagine that once inside you are impervious to the kind of impact that destroys more plebeian vehicles.
I have never got over seeing some friends at a Christening (professional couple, he a teacher, she a midwife) take their baby on his lap in the front of their car for a short but busy ride through town after the service.
I don't know what else you could have done, Ghosty, but I'd have been shocked too.

Is the danger to the children or their race you really object to?

Ghosty I see the same thing day in,day out here in Greece.Many times I have wanted to knock on the window and say something but don't because I know that(at the best) I'll be told to mind my own buisness.It makes me quite distressed at times thinking how these tiny (and not so tiny) babes might end up.

My only explation is that they all think "it won't happen to me"

Yesterday was Holocaust Remembrance Day in the UK. Replace 'gypsy' with 'Jew' or 'black' or 'Paki' and see how that last posting seams. Sorry to seem po faced, but it is offensive. Thieves may be scum of the earth, but not all gypsies are thieves. And not all thieves as gypsies.

gosh2

Is this a joke? I object strongly to what you seem to be saying

Agree utterly with the others here - that sort of comment is very offensive, Gosh2.

Thanks for reminding us of Holocaust memorial day. No substitutions should be required, actually, as funnily enough, Hitler also thought Gipsies were scum of the earth. So much so, he had as many Gipsies as he could find worked to death, gassed to death and, in the case of children, sometimes experimented on to death. After all, scum of the earth don't deserve any better, eh?

Yes , I did remember the plight of the gypsies in WW2, it was the link that rung the bell. I just put in the 'rplace' bit because some people think that racist comments about gypsies arn't racial abuse.........

I see your point.

I witnessed a truly frightening incident last week here in Jakarta. On our way to school our driver suddenly braked hard and I looked up just in time to see a child falling out of the passenger door of the car in front. Somehow, before he hit the ground an adult hand came out and grabbed at the child's clothing and managed to haul him back inside. It all happened so fast, kind of like a fast forward movie but in slo-mo, as well. Thank goodness my driver was on the ball, otherwise we could have run over the child.

Car safety is virtually non-existent here (people think we're barmy because we have a child seat for DD2 and always use it) and I don't know whether there are any laws. Children almost always sit in the front and absolutely no one wears a seat belt, whatever the age. Even parents at my dd's school, which takes the children of top govt officials, foreign diplomats etc, have to be issued with regular warnings that allowing a small child to sit on your lap and drive the car is not permitted on school grounds.

And then there's the issue of children being carried on motorbikes, sitting on the petrol tank, and with no one wearing helmets.... I can only think that the death rate is as low as it it because of the fact traffic rarely gets above 15 or 20mph.

Also, just wanted to say, I agree with Aloha, HMB et al, re the gipsy remarks. Very sad to see such sentiments on Mumsnet.

Ghosty, we used to see people in NZ do that quite regularly when we stayed with my MIL. It must be quite a problem as I believe it is common over there for the police to require a seat to be bought, instead of fining the driver/parent. They have present themselves with seat, car etc at the police station.

I'm pretty sure I've posted details about this sometime before. It was on an official NZ road/traffic site.

I am often horrified at what people allow children to do in cars and how many allow their children to sit up front in a car with airbags, no child booster seat, etc.

Getting back to the subject of this post, Ghosty I would have been as horrified as you were. Some people are just so ignorant and thoughtless. All it would take is for someone else to run into the back of them or them to run into someone and that child would likely fly out the window. The people concerned are deliberately putting a childs life in danger...why do it?? As for what "type" of people would do it... its irrelevant what sex, or ethnic origin or background they come from as I dont believe there is a set "type" that would commit this offense.

ghosty - I found another report for 2001 which reckons the rate of usage was 79% which I'd think is still far lower than you'd find in the uk (though if you search for international stats that seems to be higher than in many parts of the US). Interestingly it also says that in NZ there are some ethnic variations, so perhaps it's a cultural (rather than racial) thing?

In the UK the law allows children to ride in the front seat right from birth if they are in a proper childseat; in the backseat, they only need a seatbelt from 1 yo. I'm pretty sure there are no laws re what weight child should be in any particular seat. I'm talking about what's legal, not advisable...

I've never let my kids travel without seatbelts... but we have done most of the other "wrong" things. Out of ignorance and/or social pressure. Our current problem is that because we don't own a car, it is simply impossible to find out if we have fitted the seats properly when we do hire. Plus DD is 16 months old and still under 20 lbs, so technically I think the advice is that she is supposed to be still ride rear-facing, which is ludicrous at her age (I'm not willing to listen to screaming for hours).

We try to take the train; so incredibly much safer.

Did anyone else see Corrie last night - Maxine's funeral and Ashley gets into the hearse with baby Josh on his lap! Was he hoping to wipe out his whole family or what? I know it's a TV programme, not real life, but after all that was a real baby, and the programme is watched by millions (including me) and no doubt taken as a role model. Do think the makers should be more responsible in fact I might write and tell THEM so.

clary, I'm sure many of us would do the same thing tho' in those circumstances, there's always exceptions to every rule. You and baby would need the comfort. Besides Hearses go so-o-o slow I doubt many of them crash!!

The law is that all children should be properly restrained 'if the car has restraints' eg if there are no seatbelts in the car it is legal not to wear them. Children under 3 aren't allowed in the front seat without 'appropriate' restraints - ie a baby car seat. If the car doesn't have seatbelts then a child has to sit in the back. Not great really is it?