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Did anyone go on an Anti-War protest this weekend and how can I find out when the next ones will be?

152 replies

Tinker · 21/01/2003 17:40

Hope someone can help. In the spirit of protest for protest's sake and to give this govt a give kick out of complacency, am keen to go on an anti-war march/protest. Same attitude makes me in favour on the firefighter's dispute. However, was most dismayed to discover there had been an anti-war protest in Liverpool this weekend that I hadn't heard about beforehand. So, anyone, where/how did you hear about one? I didn't notice anything in papers last week - but could have just missed something obvious! Thanks

OP posts:
hmb · 18/02/2003 11:22

But it is so interesting to have a good discussion! And it is so rare these days to find such a well informed, well mannered group of people who can exchange deeply held views, and so seldom fall out (GF exempted!)

The thing that worried me about the missiles was more that they had re-built the manufacturing facility, which was also banned. And the missing anthrax, and the chemical capable shells, and the channeling of food out of the country to fund the re-armament program....

seahorse · 18/02/2003 11:52

Great to have such a lot of information posted on this - feel very underread on the issue now - Shameful as it is I find time to read about Jude and Sadie in great detail but skim over the paper on this issue - should be more involved since DH over there with anthrax jabs and all.

Re the point made that the world has lots of nasty dictators so why pick on SH - not a good enough reason for me to be wholly anti this proposed action. Dh came across Iraqi soldiers in the last war who were eternally grateful that they had lost and dropped their weapons as soon as they could. I personally don't wish to see any chemical weapons and stockpile of nuclear weapons in the hands of a man who can kill memebers of his own family without blinking. And to be totally risking mumsnet attack I quite like US/UK to be worlds police - with so many absolute crazy world leaders out there I'm quite happy with some sort of world police - the UN seems to be completely useless!.

As far as my 'inside' knowldege goes I don't think that we are able to 'take out' SH and his family with Special Forces or it would have been done. Also there needs to be a plan for a temporary government in place whilst the country get itself together - this is likely to be military for a few months.

Cityfreak · 18/02/2003 11:52

If anyone is interested in teaching their children about peace and tolerance, you may be interested in the Woodcraft Folk, which is a children's group. I had not heard of them for years, but they have now got a nice website www.woodcraft.org.uk. Have any of you been involved with them? Have any of you been on their events?

hmb · 18/02/2003 11:59

Seahorse, you mentioned your Dh, is he out there? I ask as we are waiting to see if my Dh deploys this week. If so have a cyber hug, and if not, and one anyway!

Philippat · 18/02/2003 12:09

Seahorse, best wishes to you and your family with dh away. You'll be entertained to hear that at the wedding I went to Saturday after the march there was one of my fellow students from college who is now a famous newsreader who was able to give us some very interesting Jude/Sadie gossip (which you probably already know, it involves some shoes).

The Guardian at the weekend had some photos from the last war - I'm not surprised the Iraqi troops were glad to surrender. Polyester uniforms, horrific burns, absolutely dreadful.

Cityfreak, one of my colleagues children is very active in woodcraftfolk - their daughter (14-ish) went to the summit in South Africa recently as part of this.

Can you tell my work is not enthralling me today?!

seahorse · 18/02/2003 12:35

hmb

dh out there now - has been for 3 wks - I'm not over happy about the lack of support dh is getting from uk over the 'war' he is at risk of losing his life for (and I'm not exaggerating in view of his previous operatons).
I am trying to convince myself that he is apart from us for a bloody good reason. Hope that is the case - if we are not going to war just send him back now please as I need to move house in 6 weeks time and I could do with dh around for that!

New daily nanny saving my life at home - have ds (3) and dd(1) both fab and gorgeous of course but hard work etc etc. Really hope your dh does not go - my dh really misses us all and we are a close tight knit family unit so it feels like an arm is chopped off.

Philippat

Don't know the saide/jude gossip- please tell - have wasted 10 mins reading Heat this morning but nothing in there.

Look I've managed to trivialise a very serious thread - think that is a good indication of my shallow personailty and work avoidance strategy.

Philippat · 18/02/2003 12:44

Seahorse, well, apparently Jude secretly ordered some Manolo Blanik shoes for Nicole Kidman (not the sort of shoes you order for a friend in a platonic, let's go hiking sort of way), but they accidently delivered them to Sadie instead.

Sorry I can't support your dh being in the gulf but am more than happy to do my patriotic duty and support you with celebrity gossip in his absence...

hmb · 18/02/2003 12:48

Seahorse, you have all my sympathy. And I feel much the same as you do on the rights/wrongs of the issue. I still don't know about Dh (and he is due to deply very soon). I'm glad that the new nanny is helping. If you are like me there is very little family support possible. And Dh is dreading leaving us all.

JanZ · 18/02/2003 12:50

I was at the march in Glasgow and it was a great experience. My first ever march - the most I ever did as a student, albeit at St Andrews, was a library sit-in (and yes, we worked during it!). I was sort of disappointed that we didn't take ds along (just so we could tell him later "he was there" ), but it was probably for the best: we had an alternative (SIL to look after him) and it would have been a long day for a 2 and a half year old, and the crowds would have been very swamping (plus not exactly relaxing for us!).

The police estimate of 30,000 was just laughable: I have run in the London Marathon, where there are over 25,000 runners - and there was no way that a solid throng of people more than 2 and a half miles long (ie the front of the march reached the SECC long before the back of the march had even been able to leave Glasgow Green) equated to only 30,000. Plus I can remember the crowds of standing people when there were still terraces at Murrayfield. 80,000 - 100,000 people is more likely.

What really bugged me was the way that none of the television newses (and almost none of the newspapers) mentioned Blair's cowardice at changing the time of his speech. Indeed many of them gave the contrary impression: that he was speaking "as the crowds massed outside". The reality was that instead of speaking, as scheduled, at 2 pm when the march was due to have arrived at the SECC (in fact, it was so large that people were still filing in to the car parks then), he had moved it forward to 10 and was away by 11 or so - when the march was only just starting 2 and a half miles miles way. To use a pithy Scottish term - he was a big Jessie!

Someone asked if any Iraqis marched on Saturday - the answer is YES - both in Glasgow and in London. They are NOT supporters of Saddam, but fail to see how this is going to help their country and the ordinary people still there who will bear the brunt of any campaign.

My big concern is that instead of putting a stop to international terrorism, which was supposed to be its objective (I don't buy this new "moral crusade" - it's come too late in the day as a "reason" ), it is going to make the world an even more dangerous place to live as it will create a recruiting tool FOR Osama bin Laden, with the absence of a logical case making many otherwise moderate Muslims into fundamentalists and some of them (doesn't need many!) into terrorists prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice.

I'm really scared for ds's future. The world will become a far more dangerous place. At present Saddam is confined within his country. They have not proven any links between him and Osama. One of best placards at the march was a simple picture of Osama with the message "Osama WANTS this war".

I think it is wrong to assume that all those who went on the march are appeasers. I am NOT necessarily against a war in all circumstances. However, I am not convinced that the case has been made. As the German foreign minister said when he so effectively slipped into English, "I'm sorry, I just don't GET it" (I think that that was why Rumsfeld was so angry - Fischer made him look a fool, and he didn't have the pretence of listening to a translation to hide behind).

My fear is the America has ALREADY destroyed the UN as an effective organisation. The fact that America has said it will go ahead with or without the UN means that a further resolution is irrelevant - that ANYTHING the UN says is irrelevant (apart from confirming that what the US is doing is illegal!).

If we were to spend a fraction of what is being set aside for the conflict (£1 billion here, God know how much in the US) and used that for alternative approaches, what could be acheieved? Flood Iraq with weapns inspectors (they don't all have to be "real" ones, but if you've got, say, 5,000 people going around places, how would Iraq know which ones to "watch" ). Flood the neighboroughing countries with humanitarian aid, for use by Iraqi organisations opposed to Saddam. Send in the Delta, Seal and SA forces to take Saddam out (what's the point of them otherwise). Fund another "Jackal". (America has done it before, successfully, in South America - getting rid of democractically elected presidents because they were not "friendly" to the US) We have already proven that carpet bombing - or even precision bombing - does not achieve the objective of "getting your man" - Osama is still at large despite the use of carpet bombing and "daisy cutters" (indiscriminate killing machines/bombs)

A bit of a long diatribe - but I am fed up of people saying we are supporting Saddam by marching against the war. Not anyone on Mumsnet - but people like Blair, when he tried to take the "moral" high ground.

seahorse · 18/02/2003 13:15

hmb

Thanks - we seem to be in a mutually horrible situation. perhaps we should start a new thread for home alone mumsnetters. ds (3.5) doesn't even mention dh now - more upsetting than when he kept asking when he was coming home (ie in time for tea etc etc)- also had to do stupid school appeal (see other thread if interested)without dh - TB and GB and SH have a lot to answer for - again totally trivialising issues and bringing them back to me me me again !

Philipat

How brilliant but awful at the same time - made me laugh out loud - lots of cyber thanks for that. Reminded me of a friendwho left her husband beaucse he finally wouldn't adopt the children they had agreed to (after 9 months of them calling them mummy and daddy. He got a new woman pretty quick and went on holiday with her.
He was denying this in the divorce. My frind received the holiday snaps of ex with new woman delivered to her new address - apparantly kodak had sent then to my friends name and her post was being redirected - fantastic!

Rhubarb · 18/02/2003 15:12

Great march on Saturday - made it all the way to the park! Dd was fantastic!

Just for those who are unconvinced of the anti-war stance, sorry if this has been covered already, I haven't time to read every single posting on here, but a few main points:

Bush cites Iraq's refusal to comply with UN resolutions as part of the justification of war, yet Israel is in breach of as many UN resolutions. But because the US is an ally of Israel and have supplied weapons to them for use against Palestine, no mention is made of this. The reason US is backing Israel? Oilfields of course! If Israel take over Palestine then the US can get even more and cheaper oil!

Also the US are themselves in breach of a ruling from the International Court of Justice for it's "unlawful use of force" during it's campaign against Nicaragua, they were ordered to pay compensation, but refused and instead intensified their attack against that nation.

In 1994 the US sponsored the Iraqi attack against Iran and even supplied materials to Iraq for the development of chemical, biological and missile system programs. They also provided plans, chemical warhead filling equipment, biological warfare related materials, missile-system guidance equipment and so on, as listed by the United States Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs.

Also the country with the biggest nuclear arsenal on Earth, the biggest stockpiler of chemical weapons is the US. And they have proven that they are not afraid to use them. They are also planning to send nuclear weapons into space, making it a 'nuclear zone' which is also in direct contravention of the UN's policy on nuclear weapons.

So you see, the real terrorist here is President Bush, not Saddam Hussein. And I for one refuse to back a war so that the West can obtain a few more oilfields and control a few more middle-eastern countries. If there is war, the anti-war coalition are calling for a general strike and the taking over of Whitehall. I'll certainly lend my weight to that, no matter what the consequences are. I am fed up of being fed lies by my government, who call themselves a democracy but who refuse to listen to the wishes of their people!

GRMUM · 18/02/2003 15:44

Just as an aside there is a documentary/movie called "Bowling for Columbine" It has actually been nominated for an Oscar this year in the documentary category.It mentions many of the facts that Rhubarb mentions below plus a lot of other stuff.It is excellant and mind blowing.I would recommend anybody to see it.I shall buy it on DVD when I can and lend it to as many people as possible.

Croppy · 18/02/2003 16:00

Well Rhubharb, you may well view George Bush as the real terrorist rather than Saddam but I sure know in whose country I'd rather live.

Lil · 18/02/2003 16:25

Rhubarb you made some good points there, up until the part about wanting to take over Whitehall!! Come on, get real, if there's a general strike we all suffer, for what exactly?

AND all this anti-America, 'Bush is the devil' hysteria at that march was so childish. Yes the US are far from ideal but go visit Iraq for a couple of weeks, then try and tell us you can compare the two countries/leaders.

Its extreme nonsense like that that makes me embarassed to be here. i.e we have all this luxury in our Western lives and yet you're trying to compare our culture with what the Iraqi's and others put up with.

Perspective please!

Lil · 18/02/2003 16:27

Croppy imagine if Saddam's rules on Marches/demonstrations were applied in this country.. this thread would be verrrry quiet

seahorse · 18/02/2003 16:28

Rhubarb

How do you know that the wishes of the 'people' are yours - there hasn't been any referendum I'm aware of and I think you might be surprised at the result if there was.

I agree with Croppy - An awful lot of Iraqis also know which country they prefer to live in.

musica · 18/02/2003 16:31

I am not at all prowar, and have had many arguments with dh about this. But, one or two things I've heard on websites and news reports have encouraged me - firstly, it is possible that Bush/Blair don't want a war. For all the talk of huge military build-ups in the Gulf, it hasn't really happened yet - there are nowhere near enough troops to mount an invasion out there, and no sign of them going in the imminent future (i.e. the next few weeks). Which suggests that they may be adopting a tactic of threatening force - SH has moved a huge distance already, allowing the arms inspectors in. He understands the language of force, and perhaps the tangible threat of the Americans coming in will be enough for either SH to comply fully with the UN, or for the Iraqis to get rid of him. So far he is moving in the right direction.

The other thing, is that it really bugs me when people say it is all about oil. It may be, I don't know. But, what most people don't seem to be aware of is the French point of view. Iraq is one of their major importers, and it is very much in their economical interests to maintain the regime in Iraq. But somehow, maintaining a brutal regime for your own financial gain is not seen as being as corrupt as the American line.

I don't want a war - the thought of it is terrifying. I hope that it may be sorted out without the war, and that our leaders know what they're doing.

Philippat · 18/02/2003 16:38

Actually, lil, there have been quite a lot of anti war marches in Iraq - albeit compulsary!

I'm not sure the 'Iraqis have dreadful life' (although I agree they do) is really a good reason for a war either. Mind you, I'd be interested to know if you went into a really deprived area of the US (say inner DC, or philly or the rural parts of kentucky or mississippi) if they'd be willing to give up democracy. I think it's a bit unwise to assume we are always right.

seahorse · 18/02/2003 16:41

lil

Croppy · 18/02/2003 16:42

I never get the "it's all about oil" argument. Mexico and Venzeula sell far more oil to the US than the Gulf. I wasn't aware that Palestine even produced oil?

Lil · 18/02/2003 16:47

Musica hooray, your first paragrapgh sums it up for me completely. I cannot believe that Blair would start a war on Bush' say so. It really makes no sense. I think you are so right, this is all about pushing Saddam to the limit, threatening him into doing what he has promised (inwriting) years ago. As I said earlier..

  • There will not be a war if Saddam corporates.

  • Saddam will coorporate if we stand up to him.

I am sure that's what this is all about. Oil makes no sense, Iraq is sitting on exactly what % of the worlds supply?

ks · 18/02/2003 16:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Philippat · 18/02/2003 16:56

Currently 3%. BUT, untapped, it has the largest oil field after Saudi Arabia. Given Bush's crazy ideas to put drill in the National Park in Alaska and pur rigs off the beaches in Florida, I can see the temptation.

But actually, I agree with you here. I think oil is a factor but not the only one.

Croppy · 18/02/2003 16:59

Yes 10% is reserves but actual supply is I think closer to 2 - 3%. Saudi Arabia has 25% of the world's oil reserves and going to war with Iraq would P them off big time.

Lil · 18/02/2003 17:03

Croppy there is certainly no oil in Palestine, it just shows how much nonsense is being spouted at these rallies!

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