Brownies? or not?

[Fran1]

Galaxy's thread just reminded me about something i was wondering.

Is Brownies still the done thing?

DD is only 2 so its not somthing that's happen for a while anyway!! But as i drove past a church the other day, i remember my Brownie days and camps etc and virtually every little girl you knew got sent to Brownies.

How religious are they? I Know we were supposed to go to church once amonth, but don't recall an enormous amount of religious activity at other times.

Me and dp don't practice a religion, but will teach dd as much as we know about various religions and respect her choice if any. So would she be frowned upon for attending Brownies if she wanted to go??

you can tell i am on a diet i thought this was about chocolate brownies

Thats interesting Gwenick about it not being started as a christion organisation! Makes me feel better if dd wants to go lol

Its the religion thing that made me start this thread, i am frustrated to find that "groups" like brownies etc have to be tagged onto a religion, and wonder there can't be something that is seperate from religion.

what about little girls from other religious backgrounds who want to join their friends at brownies???

I joined at parent and toddler group, which is run in a church hall - (i mistakenly assumed it was just a convenient place to run it)

But the children get subjected to a "bible" story at the end of each session. I bite my tongue during these stories, and continue to go because we have made some good friends there and dd loves it.

Is this the same for many p&t groups? or is just mine??

I don't object to dd learning about other religions at all, in fact i want to travel with her when she's older and take her to the many religious places i have visited and teach her what i know. But can we not just have social groups that are not related to religions.

Is it simply because churches have the halls to rent out to such groups?

Re p&t groups - I think many of them are held in churches as in many instances its people at the church that start them - in other situations it'll be because church halls are useful places (and relitavely cheap) to hire out.

The 2 groups I attend are both 'church based' in that they do bible stories too - but parents of any religion are welcome. At one of them they have alittle 'service' in the church before going to the hall for juice and toys. There'a few mum's that don't come to the 'church' bit but come later for the play and they're just as welcome

Baden powel was a 'religious' man in that (like many men in his time he was a Christian - hence I guess the reference to God in the prayer). However I've just found a very interesting link for those that are from other relgions

www.lincolnband.net/Promise_MultiFaith.htm

Daughter has announced tonight that she wants to go to Brownies. Reading this has reminded me why I am so uncomfortable about the whole thing.

Thanks Gwenick that is fantastic to see!!

Makes me feel much better about dd attending now!

I hated the idea of Brownies (chocolate variety excepted, of course) even as a kid - hideous brown and yellow uniform (even at 8 I knew this wasn't a cool combination!) and - horrors! - sponsored silences. WTF??? Me, sponsored to be silent? Where's the fun in that? Plus all those twee homemaker badges. Nah. Why am I not surprised it's a religious organisation?
But then I've never been a joiner-in and I did come out punk/rebel on the High School test

The brownies held no appeal to me as a child. The movement seemed so practical and goody goody. I wasn't put off by the religious slant, however, as I went to sunday school and a C of E primary school already.

Apart from a rocky 18 months, my son has loved being a beaver and a cub. So different from me. I agree with coddy, though. If, as a parent, you are very uncomfortable about the religious aspect, you should think twice before letting your child join up. Religion is not shoved down their throats but children are encouraged to go to church parade once a month. It might be dull from a child's point of view, but it is important from the leaders' point of view - they'd look a bit silly if no children turned up to the church things.

This is a great thread - so nice to see that there are a lot of other parents who feel the same way as dh & I over the organised religion thing. I went to Girl Guides and Girl's Brigade when I was a child aned enjoyed them both but am really not that keen for dd to attend either of these because of the emphasis on Christianity. Part of me feels that ultimately I made up my own mind despite what how I was brought up and the message from these groups, but as agnostice, dh and I both feel v. uncomfortable about dd attending a 'Christian" group. It is difficult as most of the social activities for children in our village seem to revolve around the church and although I'm not fiercly anti, I'm just not comfortable with dd being presented with "truths" that we personally don't believe. I do worry though that we are stopping her from doing things she may enjoy - and really, part of me feels she will make up her own mind when she is older (as dh and I both did), regardless of what she is told now. It's a dilemma.

DD1 came home tonight and said they are running a "Holiday Club" during February half-term at the Church round here. The 3 of them have begged and begged me tonight about going - but I'm not keen.

With regards to our Brownies/Rainbows - I am friends with both leaders as they are parents up the school. Both of them know that I am not "Christian" so really don't make the effort to ram the Christianity down the girls throats.

However, if they go to this Church club, I can predict what's going to happen! I've been trying to "entice" them with "incredibly exciting" things that I've got planned for Half-term

Those of you with older children begging to attend brownies etc.

I can recall pleading with my Mum to let me go to Sunday School because a girl at school had been bragging about how great it was. Boy was i in for a shock!! Only attended that once, i was terrified.

So i guess you're right children will make their own decisions!!

Sounds like an organisation with wide ranging interests. brownie badges

I used to be a leader but am currently resting because of LO!

As far as I am aware you don't have to be religious to join brownies/guides etc. However, as had been said a lot of groups meet in church hall mainly because the premises are cheaper and that means subscriptions paid by parents are lower, and it's run by volunteers who tend to go to that church, which is why some groups go a lot to church and others don't. In my opinion, much of the individual unit's ethos depends on the leaders, and if you feel strongly about certain issues involved in guiding, it's probably best to suss them (the leaders)out. There are units which are affiliated in schools etc.
Brownies is not meant to be affiliated to a certain religion and the promise was changed in recent years to reflect this, girls promise to 'love my God'; the wording decided in order to encompass all faiths but I appreciate this still poses a problem if you have none. There are some predominately muslim units setting up in the UK and across the world, guiding is found in many countries.
Girlguiding has reflected and adapted
on its role for young girls today considerably and much of what it attempts to achieve is very worthwhile. The girlguiding website has more information. All units are usually in desparate need for leaders, even if you wish to go as a occasional volunteer and the website has details of that too.

I help every week with Beavers (mixed sex group, following the Scouting org's vote some years ago to admit females) and we don't do religion unless the children want to e.g. if they choose to do their Faith badge when they are required to write a prayer to be recited amongst other things, and when they make their promise to blah, blah, and love god (deliberate lower case on my part as this applies to any 'higher being' they/their family may choose to worship).

No requirement to attend church and locallly AFAIK, the only parade that anyone really likes them to get involved with is St George's Day. By Remembrance Day it's considered too cold to have young children hanging about

Mine go to Rainbows (pre Brownies) and Beavers (pre cubs, causes no end of hilarity with dh!) - the only time they go to church is for church parades at special times of the year, eg Christmas - but only if they want to. It's certainly not compulsory.

I was a Baden-Powell Scout (the rebel, breakaway, all ages, boys & girls variety!) & LOVED it.

However, as an atheist & Republican (even then - gosh I must've been a PITA of a kid ) - I was always uncomfortable with the vows, etc.

Maybe it's about time someone started a secular alternative? I'd love ds (& any putative future dds) to have the opportunity to do the fun camping stuff, etc...but the religious connections do rather give me the eeby-jeebies I'm afraid.

carrieG, The Woodcraft Folk is a secular alternative. AFAIK, the emphasis is on 'green' issues istead. But the movement is not as well know as the guiding/scouting movement and there may not be a troop near you.

pootlepod, it's interesting what you say about the religious element depending on venue and leadership of individual packs. That makes a lot of sense to me.

My parents weren't very religious. They hardly ever attended church. I just happened to go to a church school because it was the nearest. My parents suggested I attended sunday school and children's groups attached to church simply as something to do. From 12 years onwards I attended youth clubs held in church, (but steered clear of the bible study groups).

I have a lasting respect and admiration for the leaders I met, all those people who gave up their weekends to take us places and give us a safe place to meet our friends. My life was enriched by meeting these strangers who showed an interest in us, who were fun, wise and generous with their time and attention. Even as a young child I knew they were different from teachers - this was not their job, they were not being paid for it, so they were doing it for love, not money.

I was lucky in that I had a loving family, but even so, it was wonderful to meet other adults, not connected with my family in any way, who were such good, generous people.

I really want my sons to get to know 'good' adults, good role models who are not nice to them because they are friends of dh and I. The people dh and I are friendly with are likely to be similar to us in age, outlook, beliefs, interests and stage in their lives. I think it's very important that my sons have adults in their lives who are good without being chosen by dh and I. I like the fact that my son is friendly with 60+ year olds, as well as twentysomethings who have made time for voluntary work. I think this is especially important for us as we have little extended family.

BTW I'm not suggesting this is a reason for everyone to get their children to join the guides or scouts. Obviously you can find 'good' adults leading all sorts of secular groups, but one thing I do like about the scout movement is that it attracts all ages.

I was a Brownie Leader for 10 years and have been running the local Guide Unit for the past three. The promise has changed as have many other things. It is encouraged that our Guides attend church twice a year. Just the main services, Remberance Sunday (parade with all other youth groups) & Christmas Carol Service (they also do this with school). Religion is no longer pushed at all and taking the 'Promise' is no longer compulsory. The promise says to 'love my God' to cover everything . Here the waiting lists are long and if you want your DD to start Rainbows at 5yrs old then she should be on the list from birth!!

It is hard work, I am not paid, nor do we get a lot of help/support from the parents. My DH is very supportive (DS 13mths) which allows me to continue every week and some of our free time such as activity weekends and camps.

When having DS I only missed 1 week - he was born on a Guide night.

Taster sessions, when you stay with your DD for the evening are a good idea and you can see what is going on. Talk to the Leaders about the programme and Church attendance - you may be pleasantly suprised.

A vote for the Woodcraft Folk, having been an "elfin" (this makes friends laugh, as I am not very elfin-esq )-thats up to about 9 and a "pioneer"-up to about 14 I think. I didn't keep going until I was 14 though!

Its completely not religious-there is a Woodcraft Folk song which talks about respecting everyone no matter what their "creed or colour of their skin" (embedded on my memory". You do a LOT of camps, and learn practical things such as how to start campfires and tie knots, and identify posionous mushrooms. Really useful when you live in the depths of inner city London! But a lot of fun. The camps are good because they are normally organised with other groups in the area, so you meet lots of people.

Anyway I had a great time. It has an explictly "green" ethos-which I personally suppport, also lots about co-operation, fostering peace etc. Will def send ds and next baby if theres one round here.

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