the Not Monday debate: which would you choose, democracy or an NHS?

[SenoraPostrophe]

back by popular demand! (shitemum asked anyway). the Monday debate, and it's not even Monday.

anyway, I thought about this the other month when Fidel castro stepped down. There was a lot of debate at the time about democracy and the lack thereof in Cuba. But most of the people talking (the ones I heard anyway) were from the US. they don't have a proper health service in the US, where they have an excellent one in Cuba.

so my question is this: Citizens of the US have the freedom to vote for their leaders. They do not have the freedom to be (necessarily) treated by a doctor, unless they are insured or rich. Who is the more free?

US democracy is a sham however since oil barons, business dynasties and media moguls run the candidates anyhow, despite the 'vote'.

Freedom is a delusion but an important one; care is a more tangible 'right'. I vote for the health service.

um... Either a rich American or a well connected Cuban is more free than a poor person from either country.

Beyond that, dunno, I'd have to ask some Cubans/Yanks somewhere where they could talk honestly.

However, taking into account Florida and the hanging chads, I wouldn't be so sure Americans do have the freedom to choose their leaders. Saw a great quote from Al Gore recently (maybe even on here): 'You win some, you lose some ? and then there's a little explored third category...'

IIRC the health service in Cuba isn't great in terms of having wonderful facilities or anything but they do manage to do a hell of a lot with what they've got - maternal death rate is waaaaaay below what you'd expect given their resources and GDP.

Democracy. NHS is a blessing but Democracy is/ should be a right.

having said that, I will backtrack a little: care should not be at the expense of the freedom delusion (such as a paternalist or totalitarian regime).

But freedom is so hard to achieve in the current climate such that choice and individual rights to be free are championed while poverty and inequality make a joke of voting.

If the choice is a straight choice between democracy and a health system then I would go with democracy and the freedoms that come with that! However, I often feel like Wilf that US democracy is a bit of a sham. And due to the US led embargos of Cuba, their health service often suffers shortages which results in high tech equipment being left unused so if I can I will opt to stay in the UK and put up with new labour and our creaking NHS. Sitting on the fence can be very comfortable

lol at the Al Gore quote.

I guess I asked because I strongly doubt the idea of democracy as "freedom". I agree, edam, that poorer and less well connected people in most (all?) countries are less free than rich and well connected countries, democracy or no democracy.

but I think I would feel freer in a country where the poor got free medical care, even if I couldn't vote or use the internet. priviledge is tyrranny.

lol, throws a spare cushion to Wilf

I doubt that having the right to vote (unless you are black and the candidates are neck and neck) is much comfort if you are dying of cancer but have no health cover/your insurer won't pay for the drugs you actually need. As happens in the US.

it's not just US democracy that's a sham though.

where are our choices? we can choose between a PR driven, more or less valueless, business obsessed party, another PR driven, more or less valueless, business obsessed party, and the lib dems, who aren't a choice really because they won't get in. how does that make us free? and what about those poor londoners having to choose between corruption and incompetence?

yeah but... you're forcing me to be devil's advocate here y'all being so reasonable and all:

would we really want excellent healthcare and NO freedom? Mussolini's trains running on time for example?

but democracy is freedom in some ways, in that in theory at least everyone has a say. I don't understand why the Americans haven't demanded a more equitable healthcare system, tbh. I'd hate to live under a regime that stifled my freedom of expression or denied my human rights, even if I did have great healthcare.

no, I wouldn't want excellent healthcare and no freedom.

but I would consider excellent healthcare and no vote.

but SP, in a non-democracy an NHS is not necessarily free and accessible to all, and can be abused. dh grew up in the GDR, where there were public and social services (not at all bad ones, either) theoretically accessible to all, but inherent in all of these services was a great great deal of politically-rooted inequalities and abuses - including (which is where the health service comes in) psychiatric abuse and removal of children of political opponents

The idea of not having an NHS - or a system of universal insurance - is very, very frightening, though, and, just as non-democratic conditions would probably mean inherent corruption to the health service, the lack of accessible and afordable healthcare can make the supposed freedom imparted by democracy meaningless.

yes, exactly.

I'm not a castro-fan btw (a castrista?). I was expecting some people to defend democracy to the end and I was going to argue with them...

I'd take the health care every time. I feel a little let down by our government on the whole, it's so very Orwellian, the way New Labour have turned into Old Tory. It will keep happening, we will never ever have a perfect government, but we can at least look after our poor.....

...ahhh, but then, what sort of government are we letting ourselves in for if we take away our right to protest, our right to have a say in the laws of the land? Is it any use having a good free health care system if it's only available to Christians, or white people, or men? Because without the right to vote, without the democracy we have in the UK, laws we do not want can be passed by whoever is in power...

And (thinking back to the GDR again) goodness nows how many doctors, nurses etc. were working 'inofficially' for the Stasi and breaking patient confidence.

So, if you got your NHS but it was run badly or was corrupt - what could you do about it? What bargaining power would you have?

Give me our system any day!

If anyone is not convinced on the NHS, watch the film Sicko. It's a real eye opener!

Cuban health service is better than ours (just watch Sicko).

I wouldn't want to live in America for anything they have, I don't see much good coming from there. Did you know that the American rich die five years sooner than our poor on average (watch Sicko)?

Do I want the freedom to live in fear of guns? To not be able to afford health-care for myself or my daughter because I'm too ill to work? To not be able to have preventative treatment for the illness I have and risk dying from a stroke or PE or something because my HMO said I can't have Aspirin because it's preventative? Do I want the freedom to live in a cardboard box because I'm too ill to work to afford to pay for something decent and live in hope that the gorgeous one Ty turns up to help?

Where ever you live the most you can hope for is a democratic dictatorship. At least we don't give ultimate power to one man!

bargaining power in a democracy or a dictatorship, Jeremy? In a dictatorship, obviously none unless you are mates with the dictator or in a favoured group.

In our country, down to us to demand our politicians look after the NHS. That involves detailed scrutiny of their plans, not just accepting vague assertions. Plus getting involved locally with practice patient groups, patient forums and foundation trusts etc. etc. - there are lots of ways to influence the NHS, none of them perfect but worth a try.

Looking at what is happening in Burma right now, not to mention Zimbabwe, give me democracy and freedom over the NHS any day.

Erm - I'm not sure about the democratic model in operation in the UK - seems effectively to disenfranchise an awful lot of people - and the way government works means that it is not accountable - just look at Iraq - blardy mess it is - politicians pretty corrupt and employing their 95 year old grandmothers - every time the politicians open their mouths a stream of lies emerge - we've got so used to it that we just let it go

Okay. NHS it is

i'd rather have an excellent tyrant, than a bad democratically elected leader.

and if you end up under military rule like Burma and were being denied essential supplies because the regime wanted to keep things tight, or being killed because you support the opposition in Zimbabwe.........what then???

Sadly I believe there are very few (if any?) excellent tyrants.............