Page 8 | Mum living in annexe - complaint made by a neighbour about this. Can we get in trouble?

Motherof1and2dogs · 2025-01-14T13:40:05+00:00

I will try to keep this as short as possible but as much detail as I can. Myself, my husband and my Mum all decided it would be a good idea to sell our previous homes and all move in together, this was down to many reasons, however the agreement was Mum was to have her own independence and own place to live so we agreed to find somewhere with an Annexe. The place we bought was advertised as an Annexe. When we viewed the property the Annexe at the time was just being used for a business and has no kitchen or bathroom, just a toilet so it was more like an outbuilding/ garage and not a proper annexe. We have been in the new place since October 2024. The Annexe is not yet self contained, my Mum has to use our bath to wash and has a make-do temporary kitchen until we save up to get her a proper kitchen and bathroom fitted. I have just had a neighbour knock to give us the heads up that another neighbour of ours has complained to the council that we have someone "living in our garage". Can we get in trouble for this? Our plan was to contact the council when was was ready to start the building process to get planning permission and then make it a self contained Annexe, and understand we would have to pay council tax on this eventually but as it's just 2 rooms with a toilet I didn't think we would need to notify anyone? It doesn't have its own address and Mum uses our address for her post. I am not really sure what to expect. I really hope this doesn't cause too many problems for us. I don't need this right now, we don't make any noise, I have a 2 year old and I am 14 weeks pregnant. I want to cry because we both work full time jobs, we work hard, pay all our bills, we are nice genuine people and we are being targeted already. One reason we moved is because we wanted a quieter lifestyle (moved from a busy town location to a small village) and it's not been the best experience so far :( Could someone please let me know what could happen to us in this situation. I'm so worried we are going to have to move again.

CantHoldMeDown · 14/01/2025 15:50

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

TheBluntTurtle · 14/01/2025 15:51

KnickerFolder · 14/01/2025 15:41

“the garage and store should only be used for those purposes incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling house as such, and not for any commercial or business purposes"

OP, it does specifically say that the annexe cannot be used to live in, just in fancy words. Purposes incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling house means the kind of things a garage, shed, store, summerhouse are used for, possibly ok to use a home office/study if it is someone working alone without employees or clients visiting.

From gov.uk:

Yep I agree - it is stating that it can’t be used to live or run a business in - it’s to be used as a hobby room basically. OP you need to apply for variation of condition even for no building works at all.

snowflakelake · 14/01/2025 15:52

KnickerFolder · 14/01/2025 15:41

“the garage and store should only be used for those purposes incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling house as such, and not for any commercial or business purposes"

OP, it does specifically say that the annexe cannot be used to live in, just in fancy words. Purposes incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling house means the kind of things a garage, shed, store, summerhouse are used for, possibly ok to use a home office/study if it is someone working alone without employees or clients visiting.

From gov.uk:

You are not using the annex in an incidental manner you are using it as a residential dwelling.
Currently you don't seem to have planning permission for this or have updated building regulations met.

I would start by getting some expert planning advice and then going to the council.

You can't just change the purpose of buildings as causally and informally as you have done, I'm not very surprised that someone has complained.

Purplebunnie · 14/01/2025 15:53

No help to you now and I hope it all works out for you, but if anyone else is in this position it is worth contacting the council before you buy, You can ask about planning permission etc and they should be happy to help.

TellYourSugargliderISaidHi · 14/01/2025 15:53

TwigletsAndRadishes · 14/01/2025 14:16

Presumably your mother sold a property and pooled her money with yours to be able to do this? I doubt you are going to get into any trouble at all. If your mother jointly owns the property and appears on the council tax bill she can sleep wherever the hell she likes. I imagine the neighbour was concerned that you had an unofficial tenant in your garden building, from whom you were taking rent without the appropriate permissions and formalities.

I think once you explain to whoever investigates from the council they will lose interest in you pretty quickly.

Edited

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That’s a good point, she should probably be in the electoral roll on the (main house) address.

Ilovemyshed · 14/01/2025 15:53

When you purchased the property, did your solicitor confirm the conversion had planning permission and could be used as part of the dwelling - i.e "habitable" space?

You may have some issues to work through here so your first call is back to your solicitor.

Stirabout · 14/01/2025 15:53

Maboscelar · 14/01/2025 14:33

Yeah, they are one family now. This was the case for a house in our street. When we moved here they had a large outbuilding in the garden which a family member slept in but used the house for the bathroom.

Some years later it's now a separate dwelling with completely unrelated pressure living in it, which is a totally different thing.

And no one could complain or object because the use had been legitimised by the faculty member usage previously.

If I were OP's neighbour I would report it and object as well. It was an office, not a separate living space for a separate household.

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This is exactly what happens so often and much more these days
Particularly in towns
Before long the number of dwellings start doubling without the infrastructure in place to cope.

aster10 · 14/01/2025 15:53

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Could I ask you - in this environment, where councils need money and the nation is in a housing crisis, would the council object to it being converted into an annexe? This would mean more council tax for them and one fewer homeless person.

DogInATent · 14/01/2025 15:55

Our plan was to contact the council when was was ready to start the building process to get planning permission and then make it a self contained Annexe, and understand we would have to pay council tax on this eventually but as it's just 2 rooms with a toilet I didn't think we would need to notify anyone? It doesn't have its own address and Mum uses our address for her post.
...
It's not a garage, it was a garage turned into an office and was advertised as an annexe, it has heating, lovely new flooring, a toilet and sink, even has its own garden! She's got a fridge freezer in there, her living area is lovely, a temporary oven, then only thing she uses of ours at the moment is a bath as she doesn't have one.

The risk of taking the "it's better to ask forgiveness than be denied permission route" is that CFers frequently get their comeuppance and then they think themselves hard done by when they're told they have to play by the rules everyone else has to.

You're creating a separate dwelling by stealth and hoping no one will notice. They will. And you'll be asked to undo it if you don't follow the rules.

BCSurvivor · 14/01/2025 15:56

Is it even legal for your mother to be living in what is effectively a detached office space, with very limited facilities which cannot possibly meet building regulations/health and safety requirements as a dwelling?

Maboscelar · 14/01/2025 15:56

Workhardcryharder · 14/01/2025 15:48

not got much else going on eh?

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Loads actually, what a bizarre assumption.

Stirabout · 14/01/2025 15:56

aster10 · 14/01/2025 15:53

Could I ask you - in this environment, where councils need money and the nation is in a housing crisis, would the council object to it being converted into an annexe? This would mean more council tax for them and one fewer homeless person.

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Yes because those issues do not override planning policy.

LookItsMeAgain · 14/01/2025 15:58

@DogInATent you wrote "You're creating a separate dwelling by stealth and hoping no one will notice. They will. And you'll be asked to undo it if you don't follow the rules."

Creating a separate dwelling "by stealth"??? The dwelling was there. There's no stealth about it. The OP has said numerous times that when they have the funds together to make the necessary adjustments to the 'dwelling', they will go through the necessary legal (following the rules) channels to do this.

@Motherof1and2dogs - just wondering if there might be space in the main part of the property for your mother to sleep, even in the short term until you get the funds together to make the conversion more permanent? If there is a spare room, I'd pop her there until you get the planning permission to convert the dwelling/annex to be a self contained granny flat at the back of your garden.

MaggieFS · 14/01/2025 15:59

OP, but you have made changes. For all
Intents and purposes you have installed a kitchen, even if temporary and not fitted.

This might be a contravention of the planning permission (sounds like it probably is) and this might mean you should already be paying separate council tax, if the habitation is even permitted to continue.

KnickerFolder · 14/01/2025 16:00

Realistically, OP, the “trouble you will be in” is the council will probably tell you that you have to restore the garage to its permitted use, and your DM can’t live there until you have planning permission and it has passed building regs. It’s not guaranteed that you will get planning permission for change of use or the works you are planning, which is pretty big “trouble” for you. I would assume the neighbour that made the complaint will probably object, whether they have grounds is another matter.

I am assuming what you meant by trouble was will you be fined? Unlikely.

Fossie · 14/01/2025 16:00

Just a word of caution. A friend did this and all was well. However her mother eventually died and the council then insisted the family pay council tax even though the annex was empty. They had to find a tenant to pay for this which was difficult to do as the annex didn’t have a front door.

IdLikeMyMomentInTheSunshine · 14/01/2025 16:00

SnarkSideOfLife · 14/01/2025 15:16

But you have made a change, you’ve made a change to the use. Changes aren’t just about physical changes.

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Absolutely.
Op is wilfully misunderstanding.

Soontobe60 · 14/01/2025 16:01

Motherof1and2dogs · 14/01/2025 15:13

@MillicentFaucet yes, both are aware. Both also asked many questions on the situation and we were able to get home insurance no problems. Our solicitor was also aware of the situation and mortgage advisor and estate agent. We wasn't hiding anything at all, it was made very clear from day one

Telling them that you will be using the annex for your DM to live in could have been interpreted as ‘DM will be moving into the annex once we have appropriate building regs / planning permission and we are able to install a bathroom and kitchen’.
I can absolutely see that they would not have expected that she were to be moving in the shed on day 1!
Those who are disparaging about the neighbour who’s reported the OP for breach of regs, try looking up things like modern slavery. Most people affected by this live in sheds / garages / garden rooms that are not building compliant and do not have planning permission. Clearly the DM doesn’t come under modern slavery, but she IS being exploited - she’s also disabled.
How many of you would be ok with your neighbour building a ‘garage’ and moving in someone to avoid planning rules?
OP, why is your DM not living in the house at the moment?

Harassedevictee · 14/01/2025 16:02

Motherof1and2dogs · 14/01/2025 14:04

@ZanzibarIsland no, we didn't think we needed to say my mum was living with us. She isn't on our mortgage so I didn't think we would need to notify anyone at this stage. She isn't in a proper self contained annexe, yet, it's more just 2 rooms and a toilet out in our back garden.

From memory everyone over 18 has to sign to say they understand if you default on the mortgage they have no right to stay. This includes DC over 18.

Mirabai · 14/01/2025 16:02

TheBluntTurtle · 14/01/2025 15:41

You need to check the planning permission for the outbuilding and any conditions re: residential use. If there is a condition stating no residential use then you will need to apply for variation of condition or change of use from outbuilding to residential annex. if it states no residential use then your planning authority could take enforcement action and tell you your mum can’t live in it until you have secured this, regardless of whether you have done any building works or not. It’s the principal of changing the outbuilding to a residential annex you need to apply for on top of any building works. This is to ensure that issues such as overlooking or adjacent properties, noise, disturbance and any pressures on public services are taken into account (yes one annex might not make a different but if everyone put an annex in their gardens then that could have a big impact).
There is no guarantee you will get permission to use the building as a residential annex- it will depend on the policies your local authority has on annex’s. The planning permission for the outbuilding will be online or should have been included in the conveyancing for your purchase.

This.

I don’t know if your solicitor missed a trick or he/she wasn’t aware exactly what you were planning. It was very naive to buy a place that doesn’t either already have an annexe or at least have planning permission for change of use.

It will be a long road to get permission to change this to residential use and there may be a no at the end of it.

Stirabout · 14/01/2025 16:02

LookItsMeAgain · 14/01/2025 15:58

@DogInATent you wrote "You're creating a separate dwelling by stealth and hoping no one will notice. They will. And you'll be asked to undo it if you don't follow the rules."

Creating a separate dwelling "by stealth"??? The dwelling was there. There's no stealth about it. The OP has said numerous times that when they have the funds together to make the necessary adjustments to the 'dwelling', they will go through the necessary legal (following the rules) channels to do this.

@Motherof1and2dogs - just wondering if there might be space in the main part of the property for your mother to sleep, even in the short term until you get the funds together to make the conversion more permanent? If there is a spare room, I'd pop her there until you get the planning permission to convert the dwelling/annex to be a self contained granny flat at the back of your garden.

The dwelling is not there
The outbuilding is not a dwelling it is to be used for ancillary purposes of the dwelling. OP is living in the dwelling not her mum.

It is irrelevant that OP thinks she can wait till she has the funds to convert the ancillary outbuilding. She can’t legally have her mother living their whilst she saves up. Whatever OPs good intentions are or were it is irrelevant. The ancillary building is not a habitable space.

ScribblingPixie · 14/01/2025 16:04

I don't think you have anything to worry about at all, as in effect you are all sharing one home currently. I would see this as an opportunity to have an informal chat with someone at the planning department to see what is allowable in the future.

1stTimeMummy2021 · 14/01/2025 16:04

@Motherof1and2dogs I am selling my house and buying a new one at the moment, so literally filled in the paperwork yesterday. I know you said the estate agent and solicitors knew that your mum would be living with you but there is a form you fill out that asks who will be living at the address, I assume you put your Mother on this as it can impact the mortgage.

Ilovemyshed · 14/01/2025 16:04

I think the bigger concern here is about whether this is a "habitable" building from a building control perspective and meets residential building controls including fire safety and insulation. Otherwise it cannot be used as a space to sleep in.

OP you need advice and fast.

DogInATent · 14/01/2025 16:05

LookItsMeAgain · 14/01/2025 15:58

@DogInATent you wrote "You're creating a separate dwelling by stealth and hoping no one will notice. They will. And you'll be asked to undo it if you don't follow the rules."

Creating a separate dwelling "by stealth"??? The dwelling was there. There's no stealth about it. The OP has said numerous times that when they have the funds together to make the necessary adjustments to the 'dwelling', they will go through the necessary legal (following the rules) channels to do this.

@Motherof1and2dogs - just wondering if there might be space in the main part of the property for your mother to sleep, even in the short term until you get the funds together to make the conversion more permanent? If there is a spare room, I'd pop her there until you get the planning permission to convert the dwelling/annex to be a self contained granny flat at the back of your garden.

Don't be deliberately dense. It started out as a garage converted to a garden room. It's not a dwelling until it becomes self-contained. And it needs planning permission before that's legal.