Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Other subjects
Original poster

Mum living in annexe - complaint made by a neighbour about this. Can we get in trouble?

554 replies

Motherof1and2dogs · 14/01/2025 13:40

I will try to keep this as short as possible but as much detail as I can. Myself, my husband and my Mum all decided it would be a good idea to sell our previous homes and all move in together, this was down to many reasons, however the agreement was Mum was to have her own independence and own place to live so we agreed to find somewhere with an Annexe. The place we bought was advertised as an Annexe. When we viewed the property the Annexe at the time was just being used for a business and has no kitchen or bathroom, just a toilet so it was more like an outbuilding/ garage and not a proper annexe.

We have been in the new place since October 2024. The Annexe is not yet self contained, my Mum has to use our bath to wash and has a make-do temporary kitchen until we save up to get her a proper kitchen and bathroom fitted.

I have just had a neighbour knock to give us the heads up that another neighbour of ours has complained to the council that we have someone "living in our garage". Can we get in trouble for this?

Our plan was to contact the council when was was ready to start the building process to get planning permission and then make it a self contained Annexe, and understand we would have to pay council tax on this eventually but as it's just 2 rooms with a toilet I didn't think we would need to notify anyone? It doesn't have its own address and Mum uses our address for her post.

I am not really sure what to expect. I really hope this doesn't cause too many problems for us. I don't need this right now, we don't make any noise, I have a 2 year old and I am 14 weeks pregnant. I want to cry because we both work full time jobs, we work hard, pay all our bills, we are nice genuine people and we are being targeted already. One reason we moved is because we wanted a quieter lifestyle (moved from a busy town location to a small village) and it's not been the best experience so far :(

Could someone please let me know what could happen to us in this situation. I'm so worried we are going to have to move again.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
EveryonesMother · 14/01/2025 19:08

An annexe is xempt from council tax if it is occupied by a relative who is disabled or elderly. Also as it has no bathroom or kitchen it is not classed as a habitable seperate entity. If your mum just uses it as a bedroom there is nothing to be worried about.
Maybe go and have a chat with the complaining party to see what their objections are. No doubt the council will eventually check it all out but it will amount to nothing, but hihlight what a miserable horrible neighbour you have who has nothing better to do than harrass a new young family. What a sad individual. Try no to stress too much.......theres always one bad apple. at least you have one decent neighbour who told you.
Sorry I havnt read every reply if this has already been posted x

Sherararara · 14/01/2025 19:10

Quicksilver15 · 14/01/2025 19:04

Building regs and planning permission are very different. There alot of houses that have various parts to them not complaint with building regs, they are also changing all the time so most buildings aren’t complaint to modern standards. As long as you didn’t convert the building I wouldn’t stress about it. Also a lot of things can be built under permitted development. That sort of annex is incidental for the enjoyment of the family/occupants. Don’t stress nobody is coming after you right now unless you’d built or changed it without the correct permission.

For instance you don’t even need planning permission to add an additional 2 floors to a house or an extra storey to a bungalow. There’s a lot of crazy loopholes that exist if you follow the rules correctly. And in this case it’s not even relevant as you haven’t converted the building.

Also you don’t get change of use to a part of a residential dwelling. A house with an outbuilding in it is all residential still so it doesn’t change because somebody lives in part of it informally (and it is informal because they are using the house).

Edited

Jesus. Correct they are different, correct lots of houses have work done that isn’t compliant with building regs, mine included. The point is the ‘garage’ doesn’t have planning permission for residential use. To get that, assuming the council agree to it being repurposed, you would need to do work to bring it up to the required spec per building regs. It would be inspected and you would get it signed off until it was up to spec. Doing a bit of work on your own house that doesn’t conform to regs isn’t an issue as the council would never know.
Permitted development permits lots of things. One of the things it clearly doesn’t permit is building a residential dwelling.

Keeponkeepingon9 · 14/01/2025 19:12

AncientAndModern1 · 14/01/2025 18:58

There is a bathroom - a loo and sink - and a kitchen with a cooker and fridge. But much more importantly, there’s a bedroom where the mother sleeps every night. And that’s a clear breach of the building’s planning permission and the building is extremely unlikely to conform to building regs.

Show quote history

During covid people converted and used their garages and out buildings for all sorts of recreational & shelter requirements. If they were all reported to the council they would have a hard job on their hands. Investigations would take forever.

LunchtimeNaps · 14/01/2025 19:12

I friend did this and whilst they were able to turn it into a self contained annex they were not permitted anyone to sleep in it overnight.

AncientAndModern1 · 14/01/2025 19:14

MyrtleLion · 14/01/2025 19:05

I think it's safer to rely on this advice from N Somerset Council than some random on the Internet:

Planning permission is normally not required to convert an existing residential out-building within the garden of the main house, such as a garage, to be used for ancillary accommodation provided that the unit is not self-contained and not used as a separate independent dwelling. An example of when accommodation is not self-contained includes where no kitchen or cooking facilities are provided.*

See for yourself: https://n-somerset.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2020-02/Residential%20annexes%20-%20detailed%20advice%20for%20planning%20professionals.pdf

Or this advice from Kingsley Smith Solicitors LLP:
In one important case, a garage detached from a house was converted into a “granny annexe”. The judge said that, even if the accommodation provided a “certain degree of independence”, the annexe did not as a result become a separate planning unit from the main dwelling. The living accommodation would remain part of the same planning unit with the house so long as it remained in single family occupation.

https://www.kslaw.co.uk/site/planning-law/your-planning-project/do-i-need-planning-permission/permission-specific-developments/

Edited
Show quote history

This building does have a bathroom and kitchen and more importantly a bedroom. It does not have planning permission to be used as a dwelling and almost certainly does not conform with building regs law. https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/extensions/article/garden-rooms/do-you-need-planning-permission-for-a-garden-room-aDScD1S8HNc7?source_code=911CRJ&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=generic&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADoAS409TrlAJIE9AD15N79ML_4oW&gclid=Cj0KCQiAs5i8BhDmARIsAGE4xHyvxh-REIalZYRVZMvo65gEneI1hTXDfiklDYBfsE7l-peNOTQj1fcaAvJ-EALw_wcB

Do you need planning permission for a garden room? - Which?

What you need to know about planning rules and whether you need permission for your dream garden room, office or log cabin.

https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/extensions/article/garden-rooms/do-you-need-planning-permission-for-a-garden-room-aDScD1S8HNc7?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADoAS409TrlAJIE9AD15N79ML_4oW&gclid=Cj0KCQiAs5i8BhDmARIsAGE4xHyvxh-REIalZYRVZMvo65gEneI1hTXDfiklDYBfsE7l-peNOTQj1fcaAvJ-EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&source_code=911CRJ

Soontobe60 · 14/01/2025 19:14

Quicksilver15 · 14/01/2025 18:11

You don’t need planning permission or extra council tax, you are living as one family (albeit multi generational). It would only qualify for council tax if it was fully self contained which it isn’t. Additionally even if later down the line you got planning permission for a fully self contained annex, in this case as it’s your mum using it, it would be called a granny annex and wouldn’t be liable for council tax until it was occupied by someone not in the family. Sounds like the neighbours can get over it.

That only applies if the relative is a dependent of the other family, and is also over 65, or substantially disabled or severely impaired. The OPs DM is none of these things.

Moonshinebaby · 14/01/2025 19:14

Your solicitor gave you crap advice (provided that you didn't misunderstand)

Even I, with no law background, knew from a few google searches last year when I was interested in garden offices, that you can't use them as additional bedrooms without special permission.

Stirabout · 14/01/2025 19:14

Quicksilver15 · 14/01/2025 19:04

Building regs and planning permission are very different. There alot of houses that have various parts to them not complaint with building regs, they are also changing all the time so most buildings aren’t complaint to modern standards. As long as you didn’t convert the building I wouldn’t stress about it. Also a lot of things can be built under permitted development. That sort of annex is incidental for the enjoyment of the family/occupants. Don’t stress nobody is coming after you right now unless you’d built or changed it without the correct permission.

For instance you don’t even need planning permission to add an additional 2 floors to a house or an extra storey to a bungalow. There’s a lot of crazy loopholes that exist if you follow the rules correctly. And in this case it’s not even relevant as you haven’t converted the building.

Also you don’t get change of use to a part of a residential dwelling. A house with an outbuilding in it is all residential still so it doesn’t change because somebody lives in part of it informally (and it is informal because they are using the house).

Edited

Permitted development does not include a second story unless you are going into the existing roof space or you somehow achieve that if you do not exceed a max ht of 3metres ( so partly underground then )
A single story extension of a certain height at the eaves and depth can be allowed in permitted development
Area dependent on the later.

OP stated the allowable use for the outbuilding is currently for ancillary accommodation only.

Quicksilver15 · 14/01/2025 19:15

MyrtleLion · 14/01/2025 19:05

I think it's safer to rely on this advice from N Somerset Council than some random on the Internet:

Planning permission is normally not required to convert an existing residential out-building within the garden of the main house, such as a garage, to be used for ancillary accommodation provided that the unit is not self-contained and not used as a separate independent dwelling. An example of when accommodation is not self-contained includes where no kitchen or cooking facilities are provided.*

See for yourself: https://n-somerset.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2020-02/Residential%20annexes%20-%20detailed%20advice%20for%20planning%20professionals.pdf

Or this advice from Kingsley Smith Solicitors LLP:
In one important case, a garage detached from a house was converted into a “granny annexe”. The judge said that, even if the accommodation provided a “certain degree of independence”, the annexe did not as a result become a separate planning unit from the main dwelling. The living accommodation would remain part of the same planning unit with the house so long as it remained in single family occupation.

https://www.kslaw.co.uk/site/planning-law/your-planning-project/do-i-need-planning-permission/permission-specific-developments/

Edited
Show quote history

Well done for adding the relevant guidance, hopefully all these people that keep spouting nonsense will believe us now! To the OP you have nothing to worry about, the neighbours don’t have a leg to stand on :).

i know what it’s like with neighbours though,; saw some old folk photographing a lean to going up near us, made me laugh to think what sort of stuff people send to the council!

AncientAndModern1 · 14/01/2025 19:15

Just because people did dodgy things during g covid doesn’t make them legal. In this case the council has been alerted to a breach and would be remiss in not investigating.

Inthebleakmidwinter1 · 14/01/2025 19:16

Unfortunately if you planned to make this into a dwelling you really should have checked this out beforehand and perhaps even put in an outline planning application.
They can call it an annex but that has no meaning legally so they have done nothing wrong. Presumably you didn’t let your solicitor know your plans so they wouldn’t have checked out what permissions it has. A quick chat to your local planning department should help you find a way forward though.

Bizarred · 14/01/2025 19:16

My friends had a triple garage built, with a large room above with a shower and loo. They deliberately did not have a kitchen installed. I can't remember exactly why, but I think it was because they weren't allowed by the council because that would have made it a separate dwelling, having both a bathroom/loo and a kitchen.

Keeponkeepingon9 · 14/01/2025 19:17

LunchtimeNaps · 14/01/2025 19:12

I friend did this and whilst they were able to turn it into a self contained annex they were not permitted anyone to sleep in it overnight.

A friend converted one of her 2 garages into a games/music area for her teenage son. They put flooring etc in & he now has friends staying over regularly. Someone reported it to the council & it was ignored.

Soontobe60 · 14/01/2025 19:17

Rosscameasdoody · 14/01/2025 18:29

The clue is in the original post. They all agreed this and so presumably. OP mum viewed the property and knew what she was getting into. If she has control of all her faculties then she has her own part in this. And they don’t necessarily need planning permission unless the annexe is a completely separate building with it’s own access. But don’t let facts stop you spewing irrelevant bile.

Show quote history

It is. But dont let facts stop you looking like you haven’t read the full thread 😂

Stirabout · 14/01/2025 19:18

AncientAndModern1 · 14/01/2025 19:14

Show quote history

Quite right!
Love that image btw Ancient….those were the days
Who stands outside with a drawing on actual paper these days!

Waterweight · 14/01/2025 19:20

Roryno · 14/01/2025 13:43

How horrible of them! What difference does it make to their life?? I wouldn’t worry. See what the council comes back with and follow their advice.

Got to agree the mum pulled the short straw & surely you don't a have a bathroom if it's the only bathroom available....

As for the report, is it possible the neighbour knew the last owner & that the annex can't be converted into living space planning wise/had problems when it was built & has genuine concerns about an older ladies living alone in it ?

Stirabout · 14/01/2025 19:21

Quicksilver15 · 14/01/2025 19:15

Well done for adding the relevant guidance, hopefully all these people that keep spouting nonsense will believe us now! To the OP you have nothing to worry about, the neighbours don’t have a leg to stand on :).

i know what it’s like with neighbours though,; saw some old folk photographing a lean to going up near us, made me laugh to think what sort of stuff people send to the council!

Show quote history

Incorrect
See @AncientAndModern1 post ie

  1. unit will be self contained so post irrelevant
  2. all external units need change of use and building regs as a minimum, non of which OP has
CarefulN0w · 14/01/2025 19:22

I see this quite often in planning decisions reviewed by our parish council.

There are a lot of houses in the village with large gardens that could potentially have an additional 2/3 houses in the space. The PC stance is that this isn't allowed and so it is very common for people to try to do it by stealth in stages. I.E. first build a "granny" annex, then apply for permission as a separate dwelling and sell it.

Where Annexes are agreed now, there is nearly always a condition applied that the Annexe can't ever become a separate dwelling.

MyrtleLion · 14/01/2025 19:31

AncientAndModern1 · 14/01/2025 19:14

Show quote history

Well, you quote Which? and I'll quote lawyers and local authorities who actually work in this area. I'd cite the case law that says a dwelling where someone needs to use the house as well as the annexe, but I've stopped work for the day. I'm not searching the legal databases for some random.

Anothercoffeeafter3 · 14/01/2025 19:37

Bizarred · 14/01/2025 19:16

My friends had a triple garage built, with a large room above with a shower and loo. They deliberately did not have a kitchen installed. I can't remember exactly why, but I think it was because they weren't allowed by the council because that would have made it a separate dwelling, having both a bathroom/loo and a kitchen.

The tricks is to not have a fitted kitchen. Does she have a bedroom in the main house. I would add her to your council tax then you are using it as annex/office for a food instagram 😉.

Why council have to get involved setting minimum standards when people are there by choice is beyond me.

AncientAndModern1 · 14/01/2025 19:37

MyrtleLion · 14/01/2025 19:31

Well, you quote Which? and I'll quote lawyers and local authorities who actually work in this area. I'd cite the case law that says a dwelling where someone needs to use the house as well as the annexe, but I've stopped work for the day. I'm not searching the legal databases for some random.

Show quote history

From your own link. This unit is self contained as it has a kitchen and bathroom - albeit not nice ones. And it almost certainly does not comply with building regs and therefore may be unsafe. You can’t have someone living in a glorified garage.

Mum living in annexe - complaint made by a neighbour about this. Can we get in trouble?
Destiny123 · 14/01/2025 19:38

changecandles · 14/01/2025 18:02

@Destiny123

That's not necc true. My parents house is just one huge house, literally just like normal swing wood/ glass doors between rooms. Only entrance is the normal front door (well you could open the patio doors into "their" lounge but noone does .. they still have to pay 2 lots of concil tax as it has 2x kitchens and 2x lounges. Regardless of the fact my grandparents have been dead 20+ years and there's only my parents and my brother living there
Your parents need to go back to the council. Most houses over a certain size have more than one sitting room and around me many houses have 2 kitchens (everyday kitchen and show kitchen or main kitchen and caterers kitchen) and it's all one council tax bill as it's all in the one dwelling

Yeah I keep telling them (they pay around 310pm in total!) But mum's worried that cos a lot of local houses have recently been remanded that their fees pay go up, when they already pay a fortune (its only actually got 4 bedrooms, we just temporarily made the dining room and study into bedrooms for my grandparents whilst they had advanced dementia)

CarefulN0w · 14/01/2025 19:44

Something else you may wish to consider OP if you are looking at this properly is the financial aspect of your DM investing in your property but not appearing on the deeds.

Although your mum is young still, if she was to residential or nursing care, this could look like intentional deprivation of assets. Age UK have good advice about this.

MyrtleLion · 14/01/2025 19:46

AncientAndModern1 · 14/01/2025 19:37

From your own link. This unit is self contained as it has a kitchen and bathroom - albeit not nice ones. And it almost certainly does not comply with building regs and therefore may be unsafe. You can’t have someone living in a glorified garage.

Show quote history

No bath. Not a bathroom. Doesn't need planning permission yet.

But you carry on arguing. I'm assuming it brings you joy.

BigAnne · 14/01/2025 19:49

Maybe the neighbours are concerned about an old disabled lady living in a garage that won't be insulated to conform with current building regs. Also the cooker is a hassard no doubt if its simply plugged in against a wall thar isn't fire retardant. I don't understand why this elderly lady can't live in the main house until the outbuilding has been properly converted as per building regs. The whole thing stinks of kippers.