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Mum living in annexe - complaint made by a neighbour about this. Can we get in trouble?

554 replies

Motherof1and2dogs · 14/01/2025 13:40

I will try to keep this as short as possible but as much detail as I can. Myself, my husband and my Mum all decided it would be a good idea to sell our previous homes and all move in together, this was down to many reasons, however the agreement was Mum was to have her own independence and own place to live so we agreed to find somewhere with an Annexe. The place we bought was advertised as an Annexe. When we viewed the property the Annexe at the time was just being used for a business and has no kitchen or bathroom, just a toilet so it was more like an outbuilding/ garage and not a proper annexe.

We have been in the new place since October 2024. The Annexe is not yet self contained, my Mum has to use our bath to wash and has a make-do temporary kitchen until we save up to get her a proper kitchen and bathroom fitted.

I have just had a neighbour knock to give us the heads up that another neighbour of ours has complained to the council that we have someone "living in our garage". Can we get in trouble for this?

Our plan was to contact the council when was was ready to start the building process to get planning permission and then make it a self contained Annexe, and understand we would have to pay council tax on this eventually but as it's just 2 rooms with a toilet I didn't think we would need to notify anyone? It doesn't have its own address and Mum uses our address for her post.

I am not really sure what to expect. I really hope this doesn't cause too many problems for us. I don't need this right now, we don't make any noise, I have a 2 year old and I am 14 weeks pregnant. I want to cry because we both work full time jobs, we work hard, pay all our bills, we are nice genuine people and we are being targeted already. One reason we moved is because we wanted a quieter lifestyle (moved from a busy town location to a small village) and it's not been the best experience so far :(

Could someone please let me know what could happen to us in this situation. I'm so worried we are going to have to move again.

OP posts:
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7
Likewhatever · 14/01/2025 17:34

Your best bet is to take advice from the council before doing any conversion. My understanding is that if it has its own entrance then it could possibly be deemed to be a separate dwelling. However if it’s accessed only from your garden that might be helpful to you.

Try not to be scared by what people post on here, a lot of it is guesswork.

CantHoldMeDown · 14/01/2025 17:35

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

BCSurvivor · 14/01/2025 17:35

Newgreensofa · 14/01/2025 17:24

Yes - right from the start of the thread, all I could think about was her poor mum in the event of a fire at night.

And me!
That, and OP's mother having to go outside, walking through the garden to her daughter's front door every time she wanted a bath or to use the washing machine because the only running water is a tiny hand basin in the office toilet!
It's winter and currently freezing outside, that's no way for anyone to live.
This is an outbuilding with permission to be used as an office, certainly not an annex as it stands at the moment.

Cakeandusername · 14/01/2025 17:36

MonopolyQueen · 14/01/2025 16:46

@Cakeandusername i agree about the fire risk. We have an attached garage and we converted half to an office - I was astonished how stringent the fire regs are. My builder explained it all, and it suddenly made sense.

@op, ignoring all the other noise about pp and council tax…please get a builder to give an opinion on fire safety, especially if the annex was built some time ago when regulations may have been less rigorous. It would be horrific if your mum was injured in a fire whilst sleeping in an office conversion that wasn’t intended as a bedroom.

best of luck it sounds like a perfect solution and hopefully you can woo the neighbours and persuade them it won’t be the thin end of a wedge. And you will be wonderful neighbours I’m sure.

I’m surprised more people haven’t picked up on this. There could easily be a fire due to overloaded electrics.

The electrics won’t have been designed for cooker - are there enough sockets or is there extension lead. The building isn’t approved for residential living so won’t have been built to comply with relevant regulations.

Rules and regulations exist so people aren’t housed in unsafe conditions. It might look nice and homely but ensuring your mum is safe is essential.

PlanningTowns · 14/01/2025 17:37

I haven’t read all the updates, you probably don’t need planning permission now as it is ancillary to the main house. But install a proper bathroom and kitchen and you most likely will do. Bit can easily be tied to the house by planning consortium and/or section 106 agreement.

0planning enforcement are like to come visit. Be honest with them. It may take a while to hear from them.

what this tells you is that you have a neighbours who notices things. Before you start any work or apply for planning permission pop a note through adjacent neighbours letter boxes to explain what you’re doing, contact details for a discussion and apologies in the event of any inconvenience. Yeah you don’t have to do this but good communication will nip gossip in the bud!

I have a funny feeling that they have complained because they don’t know what you are doing and concerned you’ll rent it out.

CantHoldMeDown · 14/01/2025 17:38

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Onceachunkymonkey · 14/01/2025 17:39

PlanningTowns · 14/01/2025 17:37

I haven’t read all the updates, you probably don’t need planning permission now as it is ancillary to the main house. But install a proper bathroom and kitchen and you most likely will do. Bit can easily be tied to the house by planning consortium and/or section 106 agreement.

0planning enforcement are like to come visit. Be honest with them. It may take a while to hear from them.

what this tells you is that you have a neighbours who notices things. Before you start any work or apply for planning permission pop a note through adjacent neighbours letter boxes to explain what you’re doing, contact details for a discussion and apologies in the event of any inconvenience. Yeah you don’t have to do this but good communication will nip gossip in the bud!

I have a funny feeling that they have complained because they don’t know what you are doing and concerned you’ll rent it out.

She absolutely needs planning. And now.

Tryingtokeepgoing · 14/01/2025 17:40

Motherof1and2dogs · 14/01/2025 14:04

@ZanzibarIsland no, we didn't think we needed to say my mum was living with us. She isn't on our mortgage so I didn't think we would need to notify anyone at this stage. She isn't in a proper self contained annexe, yet, it's more just 2 rooms and a toilet out in our back garden.

I am no expert, but it might be the case that now you/she have added cooking facilities that it is deemed a separate residential dwelling, and as such needs planning permission. As an office with a toilet, assuming that had the correct planning permission (if needed…could have been permitted development?) then using it however you like probably fine.

Blushingm · 14/01/2025 17:43

“the garage and store should only be used for those purposes incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling house as such, and not for any commercial or business purposes"

Incidental use not residential or habitable!

You say you told your insurers - as she's living in a building that's not got planning or building regs to be so then you're not insured

Stirabout · 14/01/2025 17:44

BabstheBounder · 14/01/2025 17:30

@AncientAndModern1 and @Stirabout a standalone bedroom is incidental or ancillary to the main house. It can't be used as a dwelling on its own if there's no kitchen or bathroom. It's effectively "just" a habitable room that requires the facilities of the main house.

Thats not correct
A space used to sleep in is not classed as incidental or ancillary to the main house. A sleeping space does not fall under the guidelines of additional space in terms of ancillary.

This must have approval for use over and above the designation of ancillary.

Worldgonecrazy · 14/01/2025 17:45

Any outbuilding converted to a bedroom will need to comply with building regs for insulation etc. Ypu need proper advice - building regulation officers are usually very helpful, particularly if you use a builder who is well known to them.

Autumn1990 · 14/01/2025 17:48

The previous owners may have done it to residential building regs. This should be easy to check either the local authority building control dept or the private one they used will have the records. The completion certificate should have been with the conveyancing paperwork.
In England you can have building control without planning permission and vice versa.
I am currently renovating an outbuilding and I am complying with residential building regulations but I haven’t applied for planning permission for change of use (it’s actually derelict) to living quarters as it will be years before it’s finished

turul · 14/01/2025 17:50

If it did become more self contained and you own it and the rest of the house, when will you become liable for enhanced rate of Stamp Duty? You would then own 2 properties.

Autumn1990 · 14/01/2025 17:50

There is no difference in building regs between a bedroom and utility room they are both classes as living or residential accommodation and the regs are the same for both

Cakeandusername · 14/01/2025 17:51

BCSurvivor · 14/01/2025 17:35

And me!
That, and OP's mother having to go outside, walking through the garden to her daughter's front door every time she wanted a bath or to use the washing machine because the only running water is a tiny hand basin in the office toilet!
It's winter and currently freezing outside, that's no way for anyone to live.
This is an outbuilding with permission to be used as an office, certainly not an annex as it stands at the moment.

What sort of heating is mum using? If it’s not insulated to house standard it will be cold.
So it was designed as an office and now there’s a cooker, fridge, fan heaters, lamps, all plugged in it’s honestly sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
Our converted garage office is much colder than house as it’s not insulated to same standard.

Autumn1990 · 14/01/2025 17:51

turul · 14/01/2025 17:50

If it did become more self contained and you own it and the rest of the house, when will you become liable for enhanced rate of Stamp Duty? You would then own 2 properties.

It wouldn’t be two properties as it would all be on the same deed and would still be an annexe to the main house

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 14/01/2025 17:54

Mingenious · 14/01/2025 14:58

I don’t think I could stop myself from knocking on the busybodies door tbh!

I don't think I would be able to help myself from having a quick chat with the solicitor who did my conveyancing

AncientAndModern1 · 14/01/2025 17:54

BabstheBounder · 14/01/2025 17:30

@AncientAndModern1 and @Stirabout a standalone bedroom is incidental or ancillary to the main house. It can't be used as a dwelling on its own if there's no kitchen or bathroom. It's effectively "just" a habitable room that requires the facilities of the main house.

Ancillary and incidental are different things. Incidental is the use of a building for non residential purposes. Eg a gym, office or store room. A building with a bedroom is never ancillary. If someone is sleeping and living in a building then planning permission and building control sign off is necessary. The building is likely not safe to live in and the owner will be in breach of planning rules. If the building can be brought up to scratch there’s a good chance of getting planning permission for change of use, but it could be expensive and it’s not guaranteed.

Didshejustsaythatoutloud · 14/01/2025 17:54

Babadook76 · 14/01/2025 13:54

Well done for twisting the whole op 😂😂

I noticed that too 😂

Sherararara · 14/01/2025 17:56

The key point is she sleeps in it and it doesn’t have planning permission for residential use. Therefore you are in breach of planning. What you intend to do down the line is irrelevant. If the council take notice then they could take action against you. Most likely they would just tell you no one is allowed to sleep in there until suitably converted and correct planning is obtained.

Franjipanl8r · 14/01/2025 17:58

The planning permission states "the garage and store should only be used for those purposes incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling house as such, and not for any commercial or business purposes" - it doesn't mention about no one being able to live there.

You have an “incidental” outbuilding and you need planning permission to turn it into an “ancillary” outbuilding. You don’t currently have permission for someone to be sleeping in there, your neighbour who complained is correct.

changecandles · 14/01/2025 17:58

Pleasantree · 14/01/2025 14:11

If there is no planning for it to be “accommodation” then you have a problem with her living there.
Previous owners were prevented from putting full bath & kitchen because it is not approved as “accomodation”

You will be denied this conversion by your council … it was prob already denied by previous owners. Look on the planning approval portal for your council to see what approvals were for “annex”. Also, u can see if any neighbors have got approval.

Where did you read that the bathroom was denied before? Have you just made that bit up?

changecandles · 14/01/2025 17:59

chickenpieandchips · 14/01/2025 14:11

It may have been built with permitted development where you can build a home office but it can not be a dwelling. Both my neighbours have done this and I will say something if someone lives there. Maybe the neighbours were against the annexe, couldn't say anything and now they have their reasons.

Why? Why would you do this a? How does it affect you? In any case the app says they will pay council tax for the separate dwelling so in this case you would just come across as a ln interfering busy body with no purpose

SummerFeverVenice · 14/01/2025 18:01

Karneval25 · 14/01/2025 13:52

Council will only be interested if they believe you are
a. Avoiding paying council tax on a separate, self contained dwelling.
OR
b. renting out a substandard property to a third party.

Neither is the case here.

OR
c. Financially abusing a vulnerable elderly relative.