FAITH SCHOOLS! If you don't agree with them, step this way, my dears.

[onebatmother]

What can be done?

It seems to me that many of us don't agree with them, and some of us (not I) are quite knowledgeable about the ins and outs.

Could we not start a movement?

It's all so wrong, really, isn't it?

Hmmm ST we're really not getting each other I think. Again, that's my point. They are and should be separate. If that's what you mean by discussing them - eg if someone asks about genesis re evolution and you point out it's a completely separate issue from science and nothing to do with the discussion in hand - then sorry, I agree with you and I take it back.

Neicie there is no harm in teaching comparative religions in schools, but faith schools tend to ceoncentrate on their own faith.

I completely agree with UQD's sentiments on this issue.

There is no need to ban faith schools, but why the hell are they supported by the state? That's where the absurdity lies.

Or:

That OK?

or:

I don't think it was meant to be anti faith, but about the right for non believers to have sufficient local schools if they didn't want to participate.

And to not have their tax money redirected to fund someone elses hobby instead.

Snowleopard, I am going to hazard a guess here and suggest that not everything you pass on to your children is based on empirical evidence! Perhaps you too pass on your values and morals and even some beliefs (of a goddless nature)?

If you believe in a faith it is likely that that is something you feel very strongly about educating your child in (probably even think it is your duty to do so). Of course it is the child's right to decide if they want to follow it but without giving them the basic bricks of knowledge it wouldnt be possible.

I think what you are proposing is that we just all follow YOUR beliefs ...

Let those that have the faith go to the faith schools. You don't have to.

Well put UQD.

Absolutely not neicie, I don't think at all that as an atheist I have a monopoly on truth or that it is cast in stone - an integral part of science is that it is evidence-based and so the "facts" change.

"Cast in stone" is far more a description of religious thought.

And I agree with teaching comparative religion - the fact that people are religious is an interesting and important aspect of reality.

But teaching one particular religious viewpoint as fact - alongside scientific fact - that's what I find so shocking.

UQD - I take your point about libraries. Spending on the gay community then. Do you object because it excludes you?

A piously religious person might object to tax money going to pay the for benefits of unmarried non-working mums - objection to where tax money goes is not an exclusive right.

libidoless I object to my taxes paying for other people's chldren being educated in their chosen faiths. If they want to send their kids to faith schools they shouldbe privately funded.

The fact is that it's actually quite difficult to "ban" anything. And if you are reasonably liberal, your instincts tend to go against it anyway. We should be thinking less of it as "banning" and more as... bringing faith schools into line with the wider policy of the state system.

libidoless, you are refering to snowleopard passing on things at home. Why can't religious people do that at home or in church?

And once again I will say it. British pupils are compelled to go to school even if the only school is a religious one. It is not a free choice and that's the point.

Well that's a good point actually ST.

Yes UQD, quite. Starting with admissions.

I think snowleopard suggested that people with a religious faith shouldn't be trying to pass this on at home either:

"Does a child belong to its parents? Why is it fine to force your irrational, unproven beliefs on someone just because they're your child? "

Not sure how that would work though.

Yes you're right libidoless, morals and values of course, based on basically, not hurting other people (- which is far more coherent and moral IMO than arbitrary religious laws like don't be gay, don't eat prawns etc etc). But when it comes to religion I would not in a million years teach my DS that I am right. I intend to just tell him what I think and tell him he will have his own choice to make about it.

However I do think there's a big difference between atheism and religion. Atheism is not just another belief. It's a decision not to believe, but to observe empirical reality as far as I can, and base my understanding of the world on that. I won't believe something just because my parents, a book or a church told me to.

Don;t see the comparison, swedes. As I said before, lots of taxes are spent on things we don't use. My issue is with the system actively working against those of us who pay taxes into it and don't wish to share the superstitions/ beliefs.

A council funding a Gay Awareness Day does not actively prevent me from going out and proudly proclaiming my straightness. But if you had to declare your homosexuality in order to be admitted to a particular event or building, I think a lot of people (whatever their sexuality) would object.

Faith schools are like schools which are ONLY for gay people, or ONLY for black people, or ONLY for ginger people, or ONLY for Taureans. In fact, they are worse - because you can at least prove you are gay (sort of), and you can definitely prove that you are black, or ginger, or a Taurus.

the only reason people want to abolish faith schools is because their child wasn't offered a place at one.

"If I can't have it, I don't want anyone else to have it"

A nasty unpleasant attitude IMO.

I instinctively feel it's wrong for parents to indoctrinate their children with religious views - but I do totally realise that's extreme of me and it's never going to change. It does really do my head in though.

Totally untrue, nametaken. Doesn't apply to me, nor to anyone else I know who is against faith schools.

Errrm, not really nametaken. If my child had no option but a faith school, I'd home ed. Seriously.

This is my resignation speech from this lobby because it's all going horribly wrong.

To suggest that faith schools should be abolished is going too far. I don't want to live in a country where the majority are always able to legistlate for minority. We should pride ourselves on tolerance and diversity. We should embrace difference and try to learn as much as we possibly can from people with alternative viewpoints. What we should not do is lie or stand by when those close to us lie. We should ask questions. We should shun people who lie. Pretending to be a Christian is really the most hideous thing you can do. Being a Christian is something lovely actually.

sorry but that's rubbish nametaken.

My DS goes to the local CofE school. There is no alternative within walking distance, it's our local catchment school. It pisses me off no end that that's the only option.

Agree with snowleopard too.

Whatever we do would have to be a gradual thing. I'm with Blu on the 12 year plan to phase them out.

I agree with u snowleopard but that would be an even harder thing to impose