Someone on Radio Five this morning said shouting at your children equates to child abuse

[Carla]

Well I shouted at my children this morning, and CERTAINLY not proud of it, but child abuse? What do you think, before they take me away?

here's a quote re Anne Atkins' take on this:

"One of the more extraordinary arguments for smacking was presented on Thought for the Day in which Anne Atkins after demolishing the child rearing practices of 7th century BC Sparta, argues that ‘since smacking was banned in Sweden twenty five years ago, genuine abuse has gone up nearly five hundred per cent’. So there you have it."

I only listened to a bit of it, but she said that, although the father was wrong to beat his child, it was a worse form of child abuse to separate them for six months. She said that sometimes smacking is understandable (eg when child is running on the road). She said that shouting at children is also wrong, but again, understandable when it happens occasionally.

The snippet I heard sounded all very reasonable. Lots of holier-than-thou callers to the show which she handled very well.

Well I can only agress with that. Especially since she herself is normally a bit holier than thou

...or even agree

When you have no way of communicating with your child other than shouting, then there's a problem.

The odd shout when they're refusing to listen, you've been up half the night, they scare you silly, or similar, is quite clearly not abuse.

DS somehow wriggled out of carseat while I was driving the other day (2 days after my oldest friend had an accident 2mins from home in which her car turned over 3 times and child seats probably saved her kids' lives) - I shouted so loudly that my throat hurt, but it was an instinctive reaction born out of fear.

Tiredness, bad temper and frustration conspire to cause me to shout at times and I'm not proud of it. But how you deal with your own bad behaviour can set a good example to your child: when I've shouted and believe I was wrong to do so, I apologise to DS and explain how I felt, but make it clear that I was wrong.

You're a saint if you never shout!!

"She was saying that if you shout at your children they will struggle to make friends and will be unpopular at school"

where do these people come from? not planet Earth thats for sure!

My daughter's current teacher has a bit of a reputation for shouting at the kids sometimes. At the start of the school year some of the kids struggled to settle in - mostly the ones with parents of the "please don't do that darling" variety (as their kid runs out on the road or something.) My daughter had absolutely no problems which I put down to the fact that she is well used to being shouted at at home!

I think that we have to put how we shout at our children into the context of their overall lives. The occasional shout (or when mine were small - sometimes daily shouting) at a child who is loved and cared for is totally different from some of the examples that I've seen in school yards. For example; When DS was in junior school, he was physically bullied by another boy who was his age but twice his size (height and weight). His mothers response when approached by a teacher about the bullying, was to hit her son around the back of his head, call him a stupid little fcker, a dozy bstrd, hit him again and say that she was going to fcking kill him when they got home. This was in front of me, my DS and the teacher. God only knows what she was like with him at home, if that was what she did in public. Anyway - IMO that's abuse.

I know that children have to be protected (look at my situation with GS), but, these things can be taken to ridiculous limits. When I did a child protection course some years ago - I was shocked to discover that in allowing DD1 to watch a video that was classified as older than she was - I was technically guilty of child abuse. This wasn't the sort of video's that you might imagine. At 12, she may have asked to watch something that had a 15 certificate. In each case, her dad and I would watch the film first to check the content, etc. If we decided that it was suitable, then we'd let her watch it. Usually, the certificate was due to the presence of the odd swear word, or something that she was mature enought to view as benign.

Demonising all parents who shout at their kids and placing them in one homogenous grouping as child abusers, does not 'cure' child abuse, it merely shoves it further underground.

I'm outraged by that video thing. It's basically saying that the censor is a better judge of what our children are ready for than we are. The film certificates are supposed to be a helpful guide, and a rule for public showings, not another stick with which to beat parents. Who has decided that it is technically child abuse? When did that convention sneak in?

It depends what you shout and how much you shout. Obviously parents who shout a lot will get children who shout back so I don't think it's a good idea. But child-abuse...hmmmm......

Hi Caligulights - not sure when it snook in, but it was given as an example of how pedantic the law can be. After the training course, I was discussing some of the issues raised, with a friend and colleague - who mentioned the video thing to her husband. Some years later, in their custody 'battle', he was actually allowed to cite, the fact that she let her DD and DS watch PG certificate video's alone. I am pleased to say that he lost (due to unrelated reasons), but my friend actually had to undergo parenting skills classes instigated by the social services, as it was felt that she needed guidance as to what was appropriate for children. This woman is a fully qualified nanny, youth worker and has years of experience of caring for children.

Has it ever occurred to these people that we SHOUT, because in the main we don't smack ?

Every morning I have a struggle to get DS 3.5 in to the car, not refusing just messing IYWIM.

I snapped and said in a semi reasonable voice why does this turn into a battle every morning.

Short silence and then a very earnest little voice said "Well............. sometimes I don't want to go out, ...........so I mess Is it any wonder we raise our voices at the little darlings as some times they know exactly what they are doing