can i have your views please??

[tiredemma]

right, you dont have to answer this but it would help, and i dont want to start a discussion that will turn into a cat fight, but for an assignment for college im discussing - "child poverty in the UK".
id be really interested to see what you think is child poverty, i have a list which defines it but id appreciate your views.also what do you think the government are doing to eradicate it.
like i say you dont have to answer it.

Would suggest that there are different definitions of poverty - such as financial and social - which are not necessarily mutually dependent.

I am naive in official definitions but my definition of poverty is when the family can't afford essentials which for Kids in britain are
a) housing of a decent nature, i.e waterproof and warm - I guess I include a phone line of some description
b) food (inc fresh fruit and veg)and fresh water
c) clothes - not inc designer trainers
d) some cash for school trips?
e) travel
f) sanitary type products, nappies, shampoo etc
For babies there necessary extras on top of the above.
I have assumed financial definitions only.

I would think in the uk it includes when a child is disadvantaged compared to his/her peers. Don't think we have actual hunger or lack of clothing/shoes, do we? or cold?
Wonder what has happened about that Mumsnetter who posted recently about being evicted. Hope they are ok. Having to bring a child up in bed and breakfast accommodation must be poverty.

I would consider child poverty to be a financial situation, whether it's brought about by misspendings by the parents (the recent case in the news as an extreme example) or the finances of the entire family. Let me say that I believe the latter is orders of magnitude more common that the former.

Anyway, off the top of my head, the indicators for poverty would be the same as ChristmasDillyDally's:

• hunger
• lack of appropriate clothing (warm clothes for winter, cool in summer, etc)
• housing that is unhealthy (no clean water, untreated mold, etc)
• lack of the non-food basics: sanitary products, shampoo, cleaning supplies, nappies, etc
• lack of utilities including electricity, phone, gas
• inability to travel to a job or school; this means that if there is no public transport available, having a car and the money to run it

There are sure to be others, but those are the ones that spring to mind.

noangels, I know that in the US, these are huge problems. Even though the UK is better - much much better - at looking after those in need, I still have the feeling that they are problems here, too. It's an issue that is close to my heart as our main charity deals with alleviating hunger.

I firmly believe that children who don't have to deal with such issues do better at school. After all, it's really hard for me to focus when I'm hungry, cold and/or sick - imagine what it does to a child's concentration in a class.

I'm sure I've crossposted with people - sorry! This isn't meant to be inflammatory, derisive or anything bad. Well, it might be boring, but hey, that's just me.

would be useful to distinguish between "absolute poverty" ie the bare minimum needed in terms of survival and "relative poverty" - ie level relative to others in society. hth.
lots of useful websites for quick refs/quotes if you google.

Just come back to this - I don't know what the gov't is doing to eradicate it. Sorry for ignoring that point.

It's an interesting subject.

Noangel - re actual hunger/clothing poverty
Yes this most certainly does exist in the UK]
I can think of sooooooooo many examples

A few years ago i worked in a school where loads of the kids had free school meals (which is not at all unusual) One girl returned to school after half term visibly emacaited and waif like - it was very clear that the school dinner was literally her only decent quantity of food each day

I know people for whom a 15p discount on an object from a charity shop is a big deal. I have also often heard people say: I'd like to buy XXX but i cant afford 50p this week)

A neighbour of ours (boy aged 13) has no winter coat and looks desparately thin

I think that local authorities rate poverty in schools according to what percentage have free school meals.

Dh and i have experienced poverty many many times - and yes i do mean no money for food (Dh once had £50 to last 10 weeks )

HTH tiredemma

I think what would determine child poverty is that oh so new labour but such good term, "social exclusion".

I agree with everyone else's absolute poverty definitions, but I also think that poverty is relative. So if a child is socially excluded (not being able to go on school trips, have holidays, family outings, occasional treats) because of lack of money, then that too is poverty, albeit not so dire as the absolute type.

I think the government are doing some very tiny things to address it by ever so slightly raising benefit levels for families, and the introduction of tax credits, which I think has been the single biggest factor in making some poor families less poor.

I'd argue that we do still have lack of clothing/ shoes and food, and cold.

Lots of families cannot afford heating and have to turn the heating off and put up with a cold house - JK Rowling famously wrote her first Harry Potter book in the local library because she couldn't afford to heat her house. Many very poor families never buy new clothes (except underwear), buying all clothes second hand from charity shops or relying on donations from friends and family.

Lack of food might not be an issue, but lack of good food most certainly is. Lots of very poor areas are "food deserts" where it is impossible to get fresh fruit and vegetables, so people live off poor quality processed, canned and frozen food, much of which is high fat, high energy and low nutrient.

HTH - sounds like an interesting essay!

Tiredemma, there are government definitions of what a family in poverty does not have - I remember reading them when I was doing sociology at Uni (but they were from the 80s!). AFAIK official poverty definitions these days include families who don't have a video player (I think govt definitions tend more towards the "relative poverty"). Anyway might be good to discuss those definitions in your assignment if you can find them.

Re my thoughts on poverty - I would agree with what has been said - not enough money for decent food, appropriate clothing, outings etc. Our family is way below the poverty line. We are fortunate that the kids get hand-me-downs and I buy the odd thing from a charity shop; we don't have money for holidays and school trips are a serious problem financially. And our house is freezing atm as we can't afford to heat it.

Not read through it all but this might help

Child poverty certainly does exist in this country and I agree with others that generally it is about not being able to afford the essentials: food, clothing, heating (and being able to participate in society). Lots of people are in this situation in the UK through no fault of their own and frankly the Tax Credits system is making the situation worse as overpayment repayments are preventing families from reaching the income levels that even the government says people need to live on!

The Child Poverty Action Group site might be useful.

thanks alot ladies, i have actually done all my research, using various sites. I was interested to see what you defined "poverty" as in this day and age, the info i found was quite surprising- i didnt realise that 3 million children are classed as living in poverty in the uk, poverty now is obviously different to how our grandparents would remember it, we dont see children shoeless on street corners etc.
if a child lives in a household where the average weekly income is less than £212 then they are classed as living in "absolute poverty".
if a family goes without 3 of the following they re classed as living in relative poverty
*self contained dampfree accom with indoor toilet and bath.

• three meals a day ( with fresh fruit and veg available) *two pairs of all weather shoes and a warm waterproof coat *sufficent money for public transport *adequate bedrooms and beds/bedding *heating and carpeting *a refrigerator and a washing machine
• enough money for special occasions like xmas/birthdays (for child) *books and toys for children

1 in 3 poor children do not have 3 meals a day, 1 in 3 poor children lack adequate winter clothing and shoes.

spending on food is often cut to avoid debt or to meet other essential payments such as gas, electricity or rent.
the poorest households in the uk spend on average £25.50 a week on food as compared with £106 per week for the richest.
thanks for your views, i will be using them in my assignment.

hi tiredemma. just wondered whether the £212 absolute poverty sum was net or gross, and how that meshed with the minimum wage/tax credits for families.

To clarify: by "and being able to participate in society" I meant that by being excluded from participating in society through lack of money a child also lives in poverty. I consider this an essential of life too.

Not sure that is any clearer... my excuse is lack of sleep (this time )

absolutly winnie, through all the research i have done ( and theres loads of it on the internet), it says over and over again that not being able to participate in school activities or other activities out of school through lack of funds, can be classed as relative poverty.

feast- the info didnt say, but from the other info i have gathered, i would imagine that its a total weekly household income and would include any relevant benefits.

thanks tiredemma. i was just wondering whether a family with one parent working at minimum wage (plus benefits) would reach/be signficicantly above that £212 absolute poverty limit.

This is a hard one. I remember at one time the govt definition of poverty included having a house without carpets - something that doesn't reflect poverty at all now!

I think that it is right to talk in terms of relative poverty (not sure about including a video in that though, but I suppose it depends on your priorities). I would include (for example) - overcrowded accommodation (say no living room or more than 2 kids to a bedroom), inability to afford transport and lack of decent cooking facilities (i.e. cooker and fridge with ice compartment or freezer, pans).

However I also think that the definition should include things that aren't entirely down to money. Lack of washing machine would be on my list if there is no laundrette nearby for example. Actually, thinking about it, maybe a washing machine should be included anyway for families. Lack of a drier, then.

Caligulight's point about "fresh food desserts" is a good one but I would go further - many people on low incomes do not actually know how to cook fresh food these days, which means that their diets would probably still be bad even if it were available. Plus of course, processed food is more expensive.

What the govt are doing about it (as far as I know) - one thing I was really pleased they did a while ago was something to do with the banks. Not sure what they did but 10 years ago certain areas were "blacklisted" and you couldn't get an account if you lived there. I know, I used to live in one. I think they changed that, but not sure how.

...and family tax credits. They may have cocked it up, but overall families with low earned income are much better off than they used to be. They're still relatively poor though because the rich have got richer in that time.

If you meant to ask what the govt should do:

• bring back grants for essentials for families on low incomes (not loans). Apparently it costs about as much to chase the loans as it used to to just give away the money.
• give tax credits or even grants to people prepared to open cafes/takeaways selling mostly healthy food in poor areas?
• community projects which include cooking lessons (possibly wouldn't do any good as it might seem a bit patronising)
• subsidise more buses
• redistributive taxation

tiredemma - I was typing when you posted.

The other thing they should do is make school trips free.

Does the £212 include rent? if so, what about regional differences in rents - seems very arbitrary to me.

£212 Wow tiredemma - during the several occasions when our family have had little money we have had about half that a week - tbh £212 would have felt like riches.

Even now we havent got a lot more than that
(all donations welcome!)

On a serious not i know your essay is about poverty in the uk Emma but on a global scale dh and i dont regard our current situation as poverty - a mud hut and no running water would be poverty to me - and we are seriously considering that option if it means we can leave suburban life for a life with fresh air, grass and animals- certainly dont think lack of a tumble drier repsents poverty - thats what washing lines and clothes airers are for!!!!!!!

absolutly yurt, you cant compare poverty in the uk to poverty worldwide, that would be ridiculous!!!