MT's Hirsi-Ali thread

[Monkeytrousers]

Okay. Three main questions;

Have you read her?

Are you allowed to read her (or such dissenting texts)?

In private, public?

I'm interested from a feminist view. Interested in the freedoms of women in non-'liberal' societies. I know books are expensive in Pakistan as I have discussed this with a man who lives there, but never a woman, which are really the voices I want to hear. So please be honest. This is not an attack on your culture, just an attempt to find out more.

1. yes
2. And who exavtly would/could stop me?
3. I usually read in my bed so that would be private

Just realise all my replies irelevant as live in (relatively) free society (singapore)

Can you really get your hands on that book in Pakistan? Wouldn't think so. And also, yes books are a luxury, thus only educated upper middle class women are likely to read it. That category travels to Europe and more likely to read it while abroad. So a minority really.

Monkeytrousers, another book I recommend if you interested in Ayan Hirsi Ali is murder in Amsterdam by Ian Buruma ( on the murder of Theo Van Ghogh - a lot of bio info on her in the book)

Going to bed now, will be interesting to read this in the morning. I wonder if you can keep this one from heating up

I have got that one Slim, not read it yet. Cheers, will try!

Just read your profile, I remember you now!
I would kill for a bibliography. Would that be too much to ask? Please?
Promise never to contradict you on this forum!

Bibiolograpy of what Slim?

Doesn't look like I'm going to get far with this thread does it?!

Am I just to asssume that (apart from Slim) the answer to all three questions is 'no'?

so much for free speech...

Sorry, that did not make much sense, was shattered. Now awake with pregnancy insomnia.
Arghhhhhhhh.............
What I meant was: Wow! Darwinian gender sturdies! Sounds very interseting. Would love to know more. What have you been reading for your course?
PS: The easiest on the list please.

Okay,

here

and any of these

or this for a pound!

never heard of her
never read her
who would stop me reading what i wanted to
i usually read in private whatever it is. istn it considered rude to have your nose stuck in a book when guests come over? but if i did a daily commute by train, then i would i suppose be reading in public.

just looked at your first link, and tbh, i dont think i would ever read such weighty tomes. but i am not representative of the women you want really. sorry.

i might read the third one,if it was in the library.
of the list, i think i have read oneof the nigella cookbooks, though i dont think that one. and the other stuff, well, if it was in the library, i might read it.

We've talked about her on here Pukka.

By public I meant on a park bench, in a cafe.

Where do you live again Pukka? Is it SA?

thanks!

Oh no no Pukka, sorry. The book I mean with regard to the OP are the works of Hirsi Ali, here or here

This woman has a fatwa on her for writing these books. I wanted to know therefore is reading her in Islamic socities is forbidden.

Sorry for confusion.

tbh, i dont think i would read either of those two books. why? because i am a shallow cow, who cant see beyond the end of her own nose.
i no longer live in a muslim society. dont even interact with many muslims at the moment. just inlaws on eid, and other such occasions.
i was brought up in saudi arabia, and have enough knowledge to be able to carry out fairly reasoned debate on mn, but that's about it. ten year old ds was saying that no one worries about his religious education.
comnplete hypocrite i suppose.

but in pakistan, from what i know of the culture there, i can imagine a great many educated women reading this book. but literacy rates are not incredibly high there, so that doesnt compute to a large percentage of the population.

i tend not to read on a park bench!
cafe's are usually social occasions.

oh, and i live in surrey now, so dont think thats what you mean?

My family comes from Morocco. On a scale of muslim countries It is very liberal but only a minority is litterate/educated and would have access to the book.

For starters, the book would never ever be published in arabic. Too offensive because politically sensitive. Even if it's a liberal country, militant political islamism is rife and ready to exploit anything.

Then, it would be available in a french translation in maybe 2 or 3 libraries which only sell "foreign" books with a price tag of half the monthly average wage. So to a westernised informed public anyway.
These women would read it in public yes but within their very limited circle and discuss it.

It's difficult to understand for westerners.
Feminism is alive and active. We have legal safeguards against polygamy, minimum age for mariage,women are free to work, wearing the veil is a private choice etc....
A lot of taboos are openly discussed on TV as (in no particular order) homosexuality/AIDS/peadophilia/contraception and family planning etc...

But what this book represents (in the majority's narrow defensive/paranoid view) is apostasy and that is the one thing no muslim society is ready discuss.

thanks Slim. Will digest

When you say, "It's difficult to understand for westerners.
Feminism is alive and active. We have legal safeguards against polygamy, minimum age for mariage,women are free to work, wearing the veil is a private choice etc....
A lot of taboos are openly discussed on TV as (in no particular order) homosexuality/AIDS/peadophilia/contraception and family planning etc..."

but isn't it true that the majority of women in Islamic counties are uneducated?

And do you think the issue of the way Islamism treats women should be a feminist issue at all in the West?

do you think the issue of the way Islamism treats women should be a feminist issue at all in the West?

MT- am a feminist academic, and I totally think it should be.

However, I for one balk at bringing it up at all.

The issue of 'racial and/or religious difference' has become so very sensitive in feminist/gender studies circles that unless you were actually a woman from a Muslim background you would be laying yourself open to accusations of eliminating the agency/speech of the oppressed Other and imposing your western-centric viewpoint on her...

I have steered clear of doing any work on the issue therefore, though I think some other braver feminist scholars must be doing it (have you looked on google scholar at all- there must be stuff)

I have done some work on British Islamic/Islamist masculinity, misogyny and its possible relationships to fundamentalism and domestic terrorism. At one conference I was shouted down by a (white British) bloke who said it was 'glib' of me to 'claim to understand the sacrifice' of suicide bombers (which I wasn't)...I doubt the same would have been said of me if I were Asian tbh.

Interesting DG. Will get back to this after xmas madness!

Sorry for the delay DG. Happy New Year!

Do you think cultural relativsm like that is good for a movement that is supposed to help women, all women? How can we do that without at first accepting universal human (i.e. women;s) rights?

Are their any signs that this could happen in the near future within academic circles?

Phyllis Chesler is looking at this BTW