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Original poster

If you are atheist or agnostic but your children attend Rainbows, Scouts or similar...

29 replies

lljkk · 08/12/2007 15:08

How do I enquire politely if there is a way my atheist-raised children can attend and somehow make the pledges? We live in a generally quite religious town, what's worse. Woodcraft folk would be so much better no expensive uniform for one thing! but nearest branch is just too far away.

Both DH and I have strong antipathy towards religion. It's all make-believe to us and we tell our children as much when forced to (like when DD comes home from school trying to convince me that Jesus is the most important person that ever lived). If I tell children the truth it won't work for them to attend Rainbows or Cubs just because of the God thing they might develop bad feelings towards those groups, which isn't what I want either.

OP posts:
CarGirl · 08/12/2007 15:17

the scout & guides is about following the God of your country/your own belief so no issue there in this country...........

MaureenMLovesmincepies · 08/12/2007 15:20

As a Rainbow leader, I would suggest to a parent that they missed out that bit of the promise, if they felt that strongly about it. However, the Rainbow promise is 'I promise to love MY god, so you can enterperate that how ever you like. Guiding is completely INCLUSIVE, so if your local unit has a problem with it, then refer them to their manual!

It is a tricky one though, I must admit, as we use a church hall, and the church gives us extremely reduced rates to use it. I feel that it is the very least we can do, to support the church, by attending Church parades and giving a little bit of our money back to them. This includes all my girls and I think other parents would be slightly miffed if one girl got to do all the fun party things, but would refuse to do the church bit.

Does it really matter that much? Does she not do assemblies at school? Lets face it, the rest of the promise is about always being kind and helful, but I've yet to meet a child that keeps that promise all the time!

Scouting may be a different matter. I know that our Beaver Pack insists on boys attending at least 3 parades per year, to qualify for camp.

Each Guiding or Scouting unit is different though, so you should perhaps have chat with your leaders before joining.

MarkStretch · 08/12/2007 15:25

I have this with my DD- she is a Rainbow and so far we have attended all the church stuff and she about to make her promise. I have never been religious at all and in fact find going to church quite uncomfortable but do it to support her. I have explained to DD that although she is learning about god it doesn't mean she has to believe it. She loves Rainbows and has a great time and I would never stop her going because I don't believe in god.
So far she has decided she will wait until she's a bit older until she thinks about if she believes or not and seems happy with that.

UnquietDad · 08/12/2007 15:42

We've had DD in Rainbows and now Brownies. I must admit the promise to "love my god" might as well say "love my imaginary friend" as far as I'm concerned, but it's too much hassle to make a fuss about it. I grit my teeth and put up with it.

We've also been "encouraged" to attend Brownie church services with her - DW went with her once but I have never gone.

throckenholt · 08/12/2007 15:48

When I was in the guides we took the oath and it meant nothing much to me - certainly didn't make me any more likely to become a believer (took part in memorial services, etc - even sang in the church choir (well the vicar gave up 10p per week )). I came through unscathed and still don't believe in any of it.

If the kids want to go then I think you can take the same approach as you do with the religion in school. It is there - but not the major part of it for most and can safely be ignored (at least that is my take on it).

Indith · 08/12/2007 16:14

As mentioned by others it is to 'love my god' and is intended to be exclusive. Many units are closely linked to a church and attend church parades but they should never be compulsory. Guiding certainly is not a Christian organisation. However, the churches help the units to be a part of the community. As a non Christian and leader of a unit I have a bit of a love/hate thing going on with them!

We have been working on our Festivals Roundabout this last term and they have done stuff related to all sorts of religions.

Basically we are not supposed to be Christian, as we should be inclusive, but many leaders find it hard to get away from, grace before meals on camp, prayers at the close of a meeting etc. What we should be doing is encouraging spirituality- as in getting girls to look at their own beliefs, looking at the stars, seeing the wonder in the feeling you get when you look at the sunset from the top of a mountain, that sort of thing. I went to a Spirituality workshop a few years ago, there were some great fights between the ones that thought that it should be Christian and couldn't separate spirituality and the Christian God and those who were Buddist and felt that even the new promise didn't take them into account as they didn't have a god as such.

You renew your promise every time you go up a section. There will come a point when they are old enough to decide for themselves what they want to do and personally, as a leader, I would have no problem if a child decided themselves that they didn't want to make their promise. You can still be a member without making it.

Indith · 08/12/2007 16:14

intended to be inclusive

WendyWeber · 08/12/2007 16:29

Our kids went to Rainbows/Brownies/Beavers etc and we (ie the parents) just looked the other way about the God stuff - same with school. It wasn't desperately intrusive for one thing, and they would have had to miss all the Church parades & St George's Day for another.

Things is that you can't make your children believe anything - apart from Santa and the tooth fairy, and of course they like those because they benefit materially...I used to get a bit bogged down in this dilemma actually and say in classic weedy liberal wishy-washy fashion "well some people believe A but other people believe B..."

HTH (prob not!)

nutcracker · 08/12/2007 16:31

I am not religious at all, but both dd's go to brownies. I let them join in all of it as it is up to them to decide what they believe not me.

AMerryScot · 08/12/2007 17:01

Rainbows, Brownies and Guides are very much part of the outreach of our church, so we are most happy when non-Christian children join. They are who we are doing it for.

MrsWeasleysmagicmincepies · 08/12/2007 17:13

I help at a brownie unit and my suggestions would be to speak to the leaders or the District Commissioner (every area has one)

We do go on church parades but not every Brownie goes. We do activities where we think of ways to "love my good and serve my queen and country" but this isnt anything heavy it can include recycling, being kind to each other, looking after the planet etc

Brownies is all about making friends and having fun in a safe caring environment.

As for the expensive uniform, ask around, one of our units buys the uniforms of girls moving on to guides to sell on to new brownies or ask on here! I may have a pair of trousers surplus to our needs if you decide its for you!

YuleLoveHekateAtSolstice · 08/12/2007 17:21

I'm not religious, but I don't intend to make that choice for my children. They go to beevers/cubs. They go to CofE school because it's the best one around. They are exposed to religious messages. We don't go to church, but if they asked to go, we'd take them to one. If they ever want to talk about it (in their case, it's just if they ever want to talk ! ) then I shall happily tell them the things different people believe.

When they are old enough, they can look at all the information and make their own informed choice. It's not like the fundamentals of right and wrong, that you have to teach them, or the practicalities of toilet training, for example. Faith is such a personal, individual thing. I wouldn't want to brainwash them into a religion, and I wouldn't want to brainwash them out of one, iyswim.

So I think let them go if they want, and let them come up with their own opinions over time.

UnquietDad · 08/12/2007 17:34

merryscot - is that true even if you know the parents don't support an overtly Christian message?

I've never quite bought into the "let my children make their own decision about faith" thing, because for me there is no difference between the superstitions of the Christian faith and those of other mythologies (Greek, Roman) which we have no hestitation in labelling as myth. There is also, for me, no difference between religious superstition and, say, astrology. Or tealeaf-reading. They are all equally illogical and anti-rational.

So in order to give them a fair "choice" and expose them to the range of beliefs for them to make up their own minds, I'd have to tell them all kinds of crap believed only by the supremely credulous.

AMerryScot · 08/12/2007 17:38

We rejoice, uqd

PortAndLemonaid · 08/12/2007 17:43

You could always start your own branch of the Woodcraft Folk...

Original poster
lljkk · 09/12/2007 13:15

I would PortAndLemonaid, but I have 3 children under 9 already, a baby on the way and neither DH nor I ever did anything remotely like scouts/Woodcraft, so we are pretty poorly equipped and unqualified. I'd be keener, but DH loathes camping, for instance. There is a similar Countrysiders club locally, but children have to be 10 to join.

to make my lack of social skills so obvious, but I truly need to know how to phrase it politely in asking (in effect) "Is it okay if DD comes to Rainbows even though her parents are a stark raving humanist and an arrogant atheist, which my children naturally pick up on, and this may be reflected in things they say or don't want to do? Also, it's iffy whether I and child would ever come along to any event with the slightest religious tone to it -- is that a problem?"

How to put all that politely -- and succinctly, ideally??

Thanks for feedback in how to balance it all in your own mind, but I really need to know HOW to ask about it.

OP posts:
FrannyandZooey · 09/12/2007 13:30

the thing about loving my god - atheists don't have a god. That's the point of atheism, if you will.

UnquietDad · 09/12/2007 13:31

Yes, it may as well say "love my imaginary friend".

Original poster
lljkk · 09/12/2007 13:31

thanks, F&Z, that's a sticking point for me, too, so if DD asks me what the pledge will mean for her, I'll be at a loss for what to tell her. "The principle of being nice to people"...?

OP posts:
Peachy · 09/12/2007 13:37

As ex rainbow leader i'd echo maureen's earlier post. Our unit was strongly afilliated to the church prely ebcause we actually met there (Church hall unusually built into the tower itself), but I'd not have had an issue with it at all. My predecessor would have done however, but she was scary (and a significant reason why I am no longer involved.......)

Tgink the My God thing is easier for Agnostics than Atheists tbh, I would be happy with I promise to respect your God but I am liberal freak and proud of it

AlienEars · 09/12/2007 13:43

DD is a Rainbow, soon to be Brownie, and I told her that there are lots of different gods - including her conscience which should guide her in what she is doing.

I don't have too much of a problem with her going to church services etc as at least she gets a chance to participate in the community and see what they are like - she may at least learn when to stand up/sit down so at least she doesn't look like a complete lemon later in life when at weddings/funerals.

FrannyandZooey · 09/12/2007 14:46

you could tell them it refers to Mammon

or maybe TV?

sorry

AMerryScot · 09/12/2007 14:50

We would be very happy to have your children in our Rainbows/Brownies/Guides, lljkk. Parental beliefs, or lack thereof, are not a factor.

We find that children are very good at just fitting in with the prevailing culture and don't try to impose their own on the group.

juuule · 09/12/2007 16:54

So, is it not a problem if the child or family are atheists? I'm asking because a scout leader that I know said that atheists were the only group of people the scouting movement would not allow as members. Is it down to the individual running the group?

Peachy · 09/12/2007 17:08

It's not supposed to be down to the individual, but a lot probably depends on when you trained etc.

FWIW discrimination is highly frowned upon in the organisation.