Female sexuality

[Monkeytrousers]

hello and welcome

Absolutely - if male and female sexuality were the same ie both like male sexuality, heterosexual sexual behaviour would be more like that of homosexual men. Though rape does exist here too.
I had a very dear gay friend when I was younger who used to say things like, why is rape a problem?, why not just enjoy it? He could not understand someone not wanting sex. Except that one evening he was with a group of 'friends' and they started to come on to him. He said he felt scared. Nothing bad ultimately happened but he said to me then that he understood a bit what it is like to feel that you might be forced to have sex you do not want.

As for misogynous societies - there's a word than needs defining before getting into it!

whats your take/the take on male rape?

(whole thread brilliamnt btw)

etin now I've got my glasses on I discover I would be interested to hear more about sexual dimorphism.

mt explain the direct adaptation/biproduct bit for derbrains?

tho I speak from the standpoint of said derbrain, cannot agree rape simply about reproductive advantage! what about collective advantage nice life shirts ironed food cooked if you wave a bit of fear about?

"Even more simply put, if women were not discriminating, rape would not exist."
so when you say purely sexual, you mean purely evolutionary? or about pleasure at any cost?

x post mt
far clearer than mud, geddit now. will think

there was a thread on here a couple of years ago where a lot of people said they had been raped and mostly never reported.. i think it is astonishingly common

My view of male rape and generally why male sexual behaviour is where most of the variety/'perversions'/'strangeness' lies is that because males are primed to be ready to fire, so to speak, it does not matter if they make mistakes mating with objects that are not actually females - like dogs mating with your leg. Because males are far less discriminating their mating can be with things that are a long way from being females.
Females have to get it right more often as 'mistakes' are far more costly.

actually is there any way that 'pleasure' is involved? (this may be psychology rather than your thang)
ie if a low likelihood of discovery/punishment is a given, are humans/males likely to seek Pleasure and prioritize it above, say, social stability/empathy/socialized inclination not to break law?
Though understand that the competitive reproductive idea, if true, would make it difficult to discuss this neutrally.

Purpetrated by hetrosexual men or homosexual men? I have never done any reading on this particular slant BTW, so I it'll be best guesses!

It's like the question that people ask about rape; if it is about sex and desire, why do men rape old women and very young girls?

The only answer to that is to say that statistics tell us that women of childbearing age are massivly over represented in rape stats, the highest being teenagers and early 20s, then gradually getting smaller until a drop off of rare occurance after menopause.

The stats tell us an average from which to buikd up a picture of the 'norm' - it cannot account for sexual pathologies, such as paedophillia or the opposite, all it can tell us is that these instances are rarer, and out of the ordinary of observed victim demographics.

Obviously, people who prefer infertile looking women are less likely to be successful in passing on their genes to the next generation so it would be viewed as an anti-adaptive behaviour - but much thinsg are these days, such as our liking for fatty salty food which is killing millions of us every year.

like accidentally shagging a dog? that would be costly.

but the reason MT that men rape fertile looking women could be that they have been socialized to understand that these are the women that will bring them most pleasure/are most likely to fuck men's nice lives up if allowed agency
etc etc

OBM -"tho I speak from the standpoint of said derbrain, cannot agree rape simply about reproductive advantage! what about collective advantage nice life shirts ironed food cooked if you wave a bit of fear about?

"Even more simply put, if women were not discriminating, rape would not exist."
so when you say purely sexual, you mean purely evolutionary? or about pleasure at any cost? "

So no, it isn't simply about reproductive advantage - that is the ultimate (biological/unconscious) explanation - there will be multifarious proximate explanations to do with pleasure, power, and anything else you can think of..

Like a dog humping your leg! LOL Yes, far more concise than me!

MT re shirts ironed yes, understand now.
this is all pertty new to me apart from the bottom line feminist 'so why do old ladies get raped' type arguments. v interesting.

so who's arguing what? could you give us a quick picture of the major points at which feminists/darwinists/feministdarwinists/darwinist fmenists get hot under freshly ironed (or not) collar?

or recommend an article? keep it to the See Peter Run See Jane Run level?

Etin, can I pass the baton to you re OBM's question on socilisation? I know the jist, but my brain is rattling at the thought of having to explain it in coherent form!

Sexual dimorphism.
Firstly, sex evolved before the sexes evolved. The first sexually reproducing lifeforms came in one type and produced both eggs and sperm. Hydra and coral are examples today as well as hermaphrodites eg snails and slugs. There are no males and females in these species but they do reproduce sexually. At some point the specialization of being EITHER male or female evolved in our distant ancestors.

So once a species came in two types, one producing sperm and the other eggs, selection might work differently on the two types.

In some species today there is very little difference between the sexes - eg some birds, gibbons etc. In other species the sexes are very different.

There is one species of worm where the female is one thousand times bigger than the male. There is a sea creature where the males live inside the female's body.
My favourite is the deep sea angler fish - the male is born, or hatches, into a tiny creature without a stomach and with the sole aim of finding a big female and quick if he is to survive. He bites onto the much larger female and gradually his body dissolves into hers leaving little more than gonads attached to her body. She may have a number of such males attached to her.

So sexual dimorphism is the way males and females have come under different selection pressures to become different to some greater or lesser degree. This affects not only bodies but also behaviours.

here's one article here

Might help you get the jist..?

etin - more specific re different selection pressures on m and f of one of these fabulous examples?

i have a number of such males attached to me btw. Because I'm worht it.

Also feminists tend to assert because Darwin was sexist, which he was as all Victorian's were, that this discredits his theories on sex. Their claim that for a long time science was misogynistic is true also, which has led some strands to reject the scientific methord too.

But science is a self correcting process - and there has been much of this in the evolutioanry sciences in the last 30 years, primerily becasue of the amount of women enetring the disciplines. The importance of 'female choice' was negflected by men until women came along. Science isn';t perfect, but it is still the best system we have for ironing out bias, over time.

I think feminism has simply been raging about it for so long now it will feel like a humilation to change the rhetoric or see how much things have changed (ironically helped very much by feminism enabling women to enter the sciences). But the longe it digs it's heels in the longer it risks becoming irrelevent.

bluffers guide to sexual dimorphism

LOL OBM

I suppose one thing that divides is talking about rape in connection to other species. The antagonism from traditional feminists towards this because of the implication it is natural and the then implication it cannot and even should not be judged as wrong.

This is rolling a bit fast for me now.....I'll try to keep up if I can....

With the deep sea angler fish they live, well, in the deep sea....so finding a mate may be difficult. The male is only necessary as a sperm producer so in this case he's pretty well reduced to gonads and staying attached to the female means no need to keep searching.
But the female needs to live and feed etc so she's a complete body surviving, feeding etc. It's just one way selection has worked for one species.

One aspect of evolution perhaps we need to point out here is that surviving is only one aspect and is no good without reproducing. Only reproduction takes genes into the next generation. So surviving at least until capable of reproduction is important but passing genes on is more important.

I'm thinking now of those Australian marsupial mice where the male only lives on year - during his first breeding season he does not eat but simply rushes around looking for females and finally drops dead emaciated and exhausted. The female lives for two and sometimes even three years. For the male it is better for his genetic future to live this short, frantic life.