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Female sexuality

431 replies

Monkeytrousers · 19/11/2007 20:18

hello and welcome

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Monkeytrousers · 25/11/2007 11:32

There will be lots of women taking part in this discussion and reading that have been subject to some kind of sexual victimisation, some will know that is the case, some will be unsure and some very sure. Elizabeth, you do not need a scientist to tell you what happened to you, of course not.

But what if evolutionary theory really could make rape prosecution policy more robust? Prosecution rates linger somewhere between 5-7% - that is pretty woeful, for all of feminist lobbying. Maybe current feminist thinking on this isn?t good enough. Are we not allowed to even think that? Has feminist dogma on rape become akin to religious dogma, so we cannot challenge it?

What is an ep perspective could start to improve that woeful prosecution rate? What if? Griet, Etin and I; we are feminists, we are committed to helping women, not maintaining ?the status quo?, whatever that is ? evolutionary science has been edified by the women in it, women with feminist consciousnesses, but also with the capacity to look beyond ideology if that seems to be hindering female progression rather than helping it.

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Monkeytrousers · 25/11/2007 18:32

This is Thornhill & Palmer's response to the critics

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Monkeytrousers · 25/11/2007 20:06

Have you all lost interest?! Wake up at the back!

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etin · 25/11/2007 20:20

Hi MT
I'm still here but not knowing where to take it next.
Perhaps someone could ask a question or something?
Or, MT, perhaps you could say something further on how our understanding of evolution can help practically today with the rape problem or whatever.
I confess that my main interest re. study is still in our origins, eg. the origins of patriarchy, which reminds me, I've never been able to find barbara Smuts piece on 'The Origins of Patriarchy' - do you know this?
I think it was also referenced in the Vandermassen piece Elisabetth linked earlier.

etin · 25/11/2007 20:25

Can get this but never the full article.

The Evolutionary Origins of Patriarchy
Author: Barbara Smuts

Keywords: Human social evolution, Male dominance, Patriarchy, Sexual coercion

Abstract: This article argues that feminist analyses of patriarchy should be expanded to address the evolutionary basis of male motivation to control female sexuality. Evidence from other primates of male sexual coercion and female resistance to it indicates that the sexual conflicts of interest that underlie patriarchy predate the emergence of the human species. Humans, however, exhibit more extensive male dominance and male control of female sexuality than is shown by most other primates. Six hypotheses are proposed to explain how, over the course of human evolution, this unusual degree of gender inequality came about. This approach emphasizes behavioral flexibility, cross-cultural variability in the degree of partriarchy, and possibilities for future change.

etin · 25/11/2007 20:29

Just remembered (so many books) that I have Buss and Malamuth's 'Sex, Power, Conflict' which has a chapter by Smuts: 'Male Aggression Against Women: An Evolutionary Perspective', so that is what I'll be reading now.

etin · 25/11/2007 20:33

From the introduction to the book:

Feminists and evolutionary psychologists grapple with many of the same issues.....Social and political agenda of the former...Latter restricted to describing what is....leads to hostility.

Monkeytrousers · 25/11/2007 20:39

I'll ask my supervisor if he can access it via the uni Etin.

I'm not yet in a position to talk about exactly how ep can inform rape prosecution policy. I am knee deep in a massive Home Office document and wrangling with the law as it stands. Need to uderstand it better or I will make a terrible fool of myself!

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etin · 25/11/2007 20:47

Just remembered a question I had for you.
You said earlier that human testes size correlates with mild polygyny and looking at the first chapter in book by Daly and Wilson, they say the same.

Is this right? Or should it be polygamy? I thought male testes size related to how monogamous females are ie large ones in chimpanzees because females mate with many males, small ones in Gorillas because females mate with one male (at least till new one takes over). So humans = females mostly stick to one male but not averse to sometimes mating with other on the side.

If it is called mild polygyny, I see that as a male with a a mate and a mistress or perhaps two 'wives', therefore monogamous females, rather than female mating with more than one male ie being polyandrous.

etin · 25/11/2007 20:55

Good luck with what you're doing, anyway. It's a massive issue and I feel like you do that we do have the potential to make a significant change.

Robert Wright writes about sexual harrassment in one of his articles and in America how they had that 'reasonable person' thing which I think it was Dworkin and maybe Mckinnon who got it changed to 'reasonable woman'. I may have got that wrong, but basically it's about the problem of taking a sexless/genderless perspective ie 'reasonable person's' perspective to sexual harrassment. The point being that how a person responds to sexual harrassment is different depending on whether the person is male or female.
Robert Wright makes the point that EP supports Dworkin and Mckinnon's argument that the experience is different for the two sexes and its EP that explains why.

kittock · 25/11/2007 22:59

I'm sort of still here Monkeytrousers.

Meant to say I thought your posts of 20:49 yesterday and 11:32 today were really well said.

I'm still really interested in the rape laws as they stand at the moment in the UK and what might be done to improve reporting and conviction rates. Does anyone have any ideas? Are Catharine MacKinnon's ideas about removing the need to prove lack of consent workable?

Monkeytrousers · 25/11/2007 23:35

I don't know McKinnon's work - I'm just about to move onto it.

But consent is central, a woman's word should be enough, cerianly if you take into account that in some cultures a woman would very rarely admit such a crime had taken place, because to do so would be tantomount to announcing she was no longer a virgin, and virginity is still very prized in some societies.

So we have the problem of consent and a woman's word - this is only a problem combined with the fear many people have of false allegation.

It seems, just from preliminary investigation and anecdote that most people overestimate the occurance of false allegations (by women) of rape, which are no more than any other crime.

The myths that sustain these, of some innate female duplicity (personified in the classic femme fatale figure) also may however have roots within our biology - conceiled ovulation and internal insemination being the most obvious ones and the (unconscious) anxieties about paternity surety this created in the male psyche.

A minority of women do however make false accusations, and if the costs weren't so great to men, men wouldn't fear a false accusation so much. There has to be something in that; but also, we, as feminist's need to address that certain safeguards may have to be in place to protect men from women (obvioulsy not the most psychologically healthy women) who make such allegations.

But again, it is tricky, we also need to educate women about the risks; to make them think twice before getting into an ambiguous situation, that ends in some form of coertion, maybe even she is confused about whether it was rape - to be able to talk to someone to help clarify what has happened to her, without fearing she is going to be labelled a flase accuser and, as some people want, be subject to a prison sentence herself!

It's a tricky business!
(ps Kittock, you're doing well!)

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etin · 26/11/2007 11:10

Though I understand where Thornhill and Palmer are coming from, I still think there is so much about sexuality we do not understand that rape=misguided lust, as one reviewer stated, is certainly not an acceptable final conclusion here.

Taking a natural selection stance means understanding that bodies that produce sperm and bodies that produce eggs are normally different bodies because they have evolved different ways to achieve reproductive success. Though there are exceptions, it is normally the males of species that are bigger, stronger, more aggressive, more impulsive, more selfish, more domineering - traits selected for in males for reproductive success.

I'm concerned about the assumption that sex =(reproductive)lust. Or that it always does.
I've been thinking about Bob sapolsky's description of a 'rape' in a baboon group he knew well. The alpha male was beaten by another and he then caught a female, a former regular partner, who wasn't in oestrus and forcibly mated with her causing some bleeding. At least in this case the sex is displaced aggression.

And, looking at females' reasons for engaging in sex, it is Hrdy who showed how female primates mate with males not because of lust but to confuse paternity. This is sex for a reproductive purpose ie to prevent infanticide and therefore the survival of her offspring, while not being sex for 'pleasure' as such.

What concerns me is the assumption that sex must somehow always be synonymous with 'lust'. Or that sex is necessarily fun for it to be sex.

I was a young woman when rape alarms were first bought and sold. There were many jokes about women using them to attract men for sex. As if sex is SO desired that it must always be wanted. But this is the male perspective. Unless we make a clear distinction between male and female sexuality there is always going to be the underlying 'male' perspective that sex is always desirable and sex is always fun.

I suppose what I'm saying is that 'sex', while rightly getting rid of the Victorian type repression and fear etc, has become the total opposite ie something so wonderful and fun that there cannot possibly be a genuine reason for not wanting it - and the same for both sexes. How can most rapes be proved in such a climate?

Monkeytrousers · 26/11/2007 11:57

I am in contact with Professor's Thornhill and Palmer and they themselves don't view their work as final conclusions - rather hope more research will be come of it.

I have emailed Griet directly for the Smuts paper and will email you a copy if she can pass one on, copyright permitting.

Got to take ds to nursery - back soon to read the rest of your post!!

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etin · 26/11/2007 12:22

RE. consent - for many women around the world, they consent to sex simply by marrying. Therefore there is consent often because there is not choice. So is this rape?
Is it just at one end of the spectrum of lack of human female mate/mating choice?

To take another perspective - the old Victorian lie back and think of England. Is this rape? Or, in those circumstances, is consenting to sex in exchange for resources - shelter, food, respectability or whatever - more a female strategy used when necessary? Or does lack of options rule that out as a strategy of choice?

Same re. prostitutes and sex workers in general. Does calling consent a female strategy make it appear more empowering?

If females consent to sex for reasons other than 'lust'(what the male experiences in the encounter), is it rape/wrong/bad/good/normal?
Do we create a world where women only ever have sex for 'lust' reasons? Is that even possible? Could there ever be enough natural female 'lust' to match that of the males?
And is the exchange of sex for other resources inherently wrong?

My personal feelings are that sex without 'lust' feels demeaning to me. I don't want to have to do that. Yet, if not only material resources BUT ALSO the asymmetry of the sexes' sexual needs leads to women having to do this, then I don't know what the answer is.

Monkeytrousers · 26/11/2007 13:54

Crucially perhaps, I think a woman can rationalise what she does when she has sex just because her partner wants to; be this an unconscious exchange for her partners protection and his resources - but again, this is not a one way street; men also get much in return. Men give their share in this exchange; where the exchange is fair, ie *mutual, even if this is a strained compromise for the benefit of the kids (again, I don't think this problem makes much sense without seeing offspring as teh central motivating factor for both actors) is is not traumatic.

Wheen teh exchange is forced, coerced, obtained by exploitation of one by the other, this may be the key...?

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Monkeytrousers · 26/11/2007 14:15

Even though it is not traumatic, it may be far from the romantic ideal we are bombarded with in our culture. Is it this that is unrealistic? Love and sexual desire ebbs and flows in the course of a long term relationship. You work on it in the dry periods and enjoy the, erm, 'moist' ones (guffaw)..

I do actually think that the culture we live in now; based as it is on capitalism and that itself seeming based on the fundamental rules of male intrasexual competition (why females have been at a disadvantage within it for so long perhaps, and also why the women that do do well in it have to make great sacrifices as mothers - not that they rationalise it that way of course, but that it what it is; one or the other)

What conclusions are approaching with regard to patriarchy? From what I have read, I suspect that it does not exist to oppress women, as traditional feminism thinks, but to oppress other men (i.e rivals) in the clamour to attract the prize; women and hence offspring.

I always fall back to the picture of bull seals in a colony; the males are massive and brutally fight one another, sometimes the females and pups are hurt, even killed by this violence, but they are not the targets, they are innocent bystanders caught up in the fierce battle males wage against one another. This is patriarchy, as I see it. Sometimes it even seems as if Marx might even still be right with the idea that capitalism holds the seeds of its own destruction - some people worry that way about humans, and indeed, we know that is quite possible, give the right conditions.

But patriarchy can be tempered. The value of mothers heightened in society, children put at the centre as they are in evolution itself. This would help to stop parents being pitted against one another after the birth of children, as I believe they are at present.

Sorry, rambling inarticulately now!

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etin · 26/11/2007 15:17

My origins of patriarchy theory I think must be much the same as Smuts - not a deliberate human thing and certainly not an overthrow of matriarchy.
Unlike monkeys, apes are not matrilineal nor matrilineal. In gorilla groups the adult females are not related. If there is more than one male they most likely are.
In chimpanzees and bonobos the males remain all their lives in their birth group. The females normally leave at sexual maturity to breed in another group.
If you add this ancestral mating system to the greater size, strength, aggression, and - in chimpanzees - strong male-male bonding and weak female-female bonding(being non-relatives)then how could it not have evolved into patriarchy.

The bonobos managed to overturn male dominance by female-female bonding and sons remaining attached to mothers rather than bonding with other males. Though we may have some of the bonobo in us, so to speak, I believe we have much more of the chimpanzee.

Whatever, holding on to the belief in matriarchies and female dominance as being part of our evolutionary history I belive is absolutely wrong and preventing our understanding of what really happened.

Elizabetth · 26/11/2007 15:25

"Can you name these scientists Elizabeth? It's been taken to pieces by feminists who misunderstand and have misread it. Randy Thornhill and Craig Palmer are th eleader in their field, and not "pop" scientists"

Yup. This article criticising the book was published in Nature.

"A theory that rape has its origin in evolutionary biology is seriously flawed.

By Jerry A. Coyne and Andrew Berry

Jerry A. Coyne is in the Department of Ecology and Evolution, The University of Chicago, 1101 East 57 Street, Chicago, Illinois 60637, USA.

Andrew Berry is at the Museum of Comparative Zoology Labs, Harvard University, 26 Oxford St, Cambridge MA 02138 USA

In A Natural History of Rape, Randy Thornhill and Craig Palmer argue that rape is an adaptation - that it has evolved to increase the reproductive success of men who would otherwise have little sexual access to women. Their analysis of rape then forms the basis of a protracted sales pitch for evolutionary psychology, the latest incarnation of sociobiology: not only do the authors believe that this should be the explanatory model of choice in the human behavioural sciences, but they also want to see its insights incorporated into social policy. Thus, in a single slim volume, Thornhill and Palmer give us both an inflammatory analysis of a sensitive topic, and a manifesto outlining evolutionary biology's future conquest of the social sciences.

In the furore that has greeted the book's publication, the scientific evidence for the authors' arguments has been largely ignored. However, it is here that we must start. If their specific claims about rape are not scientifically sound, then the authors' grand vision of the centrality of natural selection to every aspect of our behaviour collapses as well. In their media appearances, Thornhill and Palmer cloak themselves in the authority of science, implying that the controversy over their ideas is purely political, and that the underlying biology is unimpeachable. This is a serious misrepresentation.

What persuasiveness the book does possess rests on an ingenious rhetorical trick. The authors lay out two alternative evolutionary hypotheses: rape is either a "specific adaptation" (i.e., natural selection explicitly promoted the act) or a "by-product of evolution" (i.e., there was no direct selection for rape; rather it is an accidental product of selection for, say, male promiscuity and aggression). Readers unconvinced by the specific-adaptation argument therefore find themselves embracing by default the by-product alternative. Either way, Thornhill and Palmer claim a convert.

But what, in behavioural terms, is an evolutionary by-product? Everything that is not a specific adaptation. Thus playing the piano - an activity unlikely to have been instrumental in the evolution of the brain - is an evolutionary by-product, because it depends on a brain that was itself produced by natural selection. If every human behaviour can be seen as a by-product of evolution, then the by-product idea is useless, for a theory that explains everything is merely a truism. The claims that rape and playing the piano are by-products of evolution are claims without content.

It is not surprising, then, that A Natural History of Rape is a largely an argument for the specific-adaptation theory. Thornhill and Palmer's evidence, however, either 1) fails to support their case, 2) is presented in a misleading and/or biased way, or 3) equally supports alternative explanations. Here is one example of each of these problems:

First, Thornhill and Palmer make much of the claim that rape victims tend to be in their prime reproductive years, suggesting that reproduction is indeed a central part of the rapist's agenda. But the data they present contradicts this claim. In a 1992 survey that attempted to deal with the substantial statistical problem of unreported rape, 29% of U.S. rape victims were under the age of 11. As that age group comprises approximately 15% of the female population, under-11s were over-represented among rape victims by a factor of two. So invested are the authors in their specific-adaptation hypothesis that they try to explain this nonadaptive anomaly by noting that the data do not indicate the "proportion of the victims under 11 who were exhibiting secondary sexual traits."[p.72] Further, "the increasingly early age of menarche in Western females contributes to the enhanced sexual attractiveness of some females under 12." [p.72]. In the end, the hopelessness of this special pleading merely draws attention to the failure of the data to support the authors' hypothesis.

Second, Thornhill and Palmer contend that, based on sociological studies, female rape victims of reproductive age are more traumatized by the experience than are women either too old or too young to reproduce. The rationale is that reproductive-age women are in effect mourning the lost opportunity for mate choice which rape, in the worldview of evolutionary psychology, represents to them. The authors see this apparent heterogeneity in the reaction to rape as supporting their claims about the reproductive essence of the act.

In checking the cited reference (one of whose authors was Thornhill himself), we find that the original work's conclusions differ critically from those given in the book. According to Thornhill and Palmer, the cited study shows post-rape trauma to be higher in reproductive-age women (12-44) than in the two other age classes (under 12 and over 44). In fact, the data show that the only heterogeneity in response to rape comes from the under-12 class: the over-44 class is just as traumatized as the 12-44 one.

However, when the over-44 and under-12 classes are pooled, the under-12 effect of less trauma makes this combined "nonreproductive" class significantly different from the 12-44 one. The authors have used statistical sleight of hand to buttress their argument. And we need hardly point out that the relative lack of trauma in the youngest age group may be unrelated to sexual immaturity: rather, children may be less able to express their feelings. Furthermore, the original study's data are questionable because much of the assessment of trauma in the under-12 class was necessarily based on reports of the child's caregivers rather than of the child herself. Direct comparison of observer-reported and self-reported data on such a subjective issue is extremely problematic.

Finally, the fact that women of reproductive age experience more violence during rape than do older women or children - suggesting that they fight back harder - is taken by Thornhill and Palmer as evidence that they have more to defend. There is, they contend, more at stake - reproduction, no less-for reproductive-age women. While it is true that reproductive women who resist rape may be partly motivated by the fear of unwanted conception, it is also true that such women, at the peak of bodily strength, are most physically capable of fighting back. Children cannot fight off a full-grown man, and older women may also find resistance beyond them. In exclusively championing their preferred explanation of a phenomenon, even when it is less plausible than alternatives, the authors reveal their true colours. A Natural History of Rape is advocacy, not science.

We have highlighted just three examples of the book's flawed arguments. There are many more. The evidence that rape is a specific adaptation is weak at best. In keeping with the traditions established early in the evolution of sociobiology, Thornhill and Palmer's evidence comes down to a series of untestable "just-so" stories.

Sociobiological approaches to human behaviour may yield interesting insights. But it is disciplinary hubris - a longstanding feature of evolutionary psychology- to suppose that natural selection underlies our every action. Because of the central role of reproduction in Darwin's theory, sexual behaviour is in principle a good candidate for fruitful sociobiological study, but even here it usually fails dismally. The most imaginative and committed sociobiologist would be hard pressed to show that masturbation, sadomasochism, bestiality, and pornography's enthusiasm for high heels are all direct adaptations. In its insistence on forcing everything into the straitjacket of adaptation, evolutionary psychology offers a woefully incomplete perspective on human behaviour. Thornhill and Palmer have inadvertently revealed just how deficient that perspective is."

etin · 26/11/2007 15:30

And once human males actually controlled the movement of the dispersing, sexually mature females, well they could control reproduction, control who the females mated with. THere would be conflict between males over this access to females - which links in with Freuds 'Oedipus' theories. It wasn't about killing father and marrying mother but killing off the elder males and getting access to the reproductive females they were keeping to themselves.

The particular burden on human mothers of reproduction and dependence on males for provisioning and protecting from other males put human females in a more disadvantaged position than probably the females of any other species.

Then add on the value of females in exchange connected to their purity and chastity and potential loyalty to their prospective in-laws and, well, we have the human female facing not a lot of choice and agency in her life.
This is where I have problems with female mate choice in humans - ie just how much could there be in these circumstances? And think about the males in the groups arranging exchanges of females - could we have a novel situation here where males court males for sexual access to their sisters and daughters? would that cause a feedback loop in masculinity ie what attracts the men to each other would not necessarily be attractive to a female?

Elizabetth · 26/11/2007 15:33

I also don't think that feminist criticisms of the book can be dismissed just because they are feminists. Feminists are the leading researchers on rape, nobody has done more to increase our understanding of the motivations for it, its effect on victims and what these mean for women and for society as a whole. Dismissing feminists out of hand when they have done so much concrete work is actually sexism.

"Maybe current feminist thinking on this isn?t good enough. Are we not allowed to even think that? Has feminist dogma on rape become akin to religious dogma, so we cannot challenge it? "

Well of course you can think it, but that's not really very scientific is it, MT? If you want to challenge it you need to come up with solid facts and evidence to contradict feminist arguments and conclusions. I'm not seeing much of it here. I'm not really sure why you are calling feminism "dogma". Feminism is based on women's real experiences and analysis of the same. Calling it "dogma" is the kind of sexism I expect from anti-feminists.

Elizabetth · 26/11/2007 15:36

"But again, it is tricky, we also need to educate women about the risks; to make them think twice before getting into an ambiguous situation, that ends in some form of coertion, maybe even she is confused about whether it was rape - to be able to talk to someone to help clarify what has happened to her, without fearing she is going to be labelled a flase accuser and, as some people want, be subject to a prison sentence herself!"

I believe that this was the approach the Victorians took - that women shouldn't be left alone in the company of men.

Elizabetth · 26/11/2007 16:09

"Oh Elizabetth, evolutionary psychology and biology is not pure speculation at all, it is in fact much more robust a science than your common or garden psychology. It is eminently testable! Those type of criticisms just don?t hold sway anymore, and feminism needs to stop mouthing them, putting those words into the mouths of very intelligent women as it disempowers women, feminists and feminism in fact. "

It's testable is it? That's interesting. Could you describe what kind of tests Evo-psychs to to support their hypotheses? I remember learning the proof of e equals mc squared in physics, which was terribly exciting. I'm sure these tests and proofs the EPs have must be equally so.

"I don?t know what you mean when you ask are women free in our society? Is anyone free, male or female? Is it only the very rich that are free? Is it only the very intelligent? What is very clear, is that on a global scale women in the west really have never had it so good. I am liable to think things will never get any better, that we have reached the pinnacle of progress ? what with the shadow of environmental upheaval, war, lack of oil all to come ? things will probably get much worse. I hope I am wrong."

We live in a patriarchy, i.e. almost all the power in the world is held by men. Women aren't free in that sense.

"Thornhill and Palmer are not ??idiots?. If you look at the reviews on Amazon you will get the reactionary, misunderstood one and just below, the open minded one. I don?t think feminism is served well by reactionsim, but it seems to be an entrenched aspect of it. It?s always ?time to get angry again?, when I think feminism should drop angry and get serious. There is too much at stake for histrionics."

Amazon isn't where I'd go for reviews of a book. I think Nature is probably a better source. Calling women "hysterical" is extraodinarily sexist. Feminists make well-argued cases which are then dismissed as histrionics. I know you're all Darwinists but you don't really need to hold on to the Victorian attitudes of his time too.

"No one in EP dictates anything, this is a common misconception; it is descriptive not prescriptive, do you know what I mean?"

Apart from the fact that rape is an evolutionary tactic? That sounds like a prescription to me or at least a description marred by extreme biases, none of them scientific. Griet Vandermassen claims that everything EP "describes" could be predicted. It's a bit like saying after you've heard the lottery results that you've got a special technique for working out the numbers and oh look it agrees with the result so it must work.

"I personally, and it is part of my thesis, think that the inability of feminism to look at contemporary evolutionary science without the baggage and prejudice of decades past, will have profound moral implications for women around the world. If feminism is there to help women, then it should be able to look at all the evidence about human nature, not simply dismiss one approach because it doesn?t fit with feminist dogma. Why is dogma more important that real progress for women?"

If it's wrong or inaccurate or politically biased it deserves to be dismissed. I don't see why feminism should be forced to accept rubbish. You'll need to make a better case that this stuff is useful because so far all I've seen is that it's self-serving, believing that EP is the true authority on human nature. That's a pretty big claim.

"Contrary to many expectations however, evolutionary theory very often scientifically backs up what feminists have instinctively suspected for centuries, such as the tendency for patriarchal oppression when it comes to men coveting a woman's fertility, anxieties over paternity surety, and the tendency of these insecurities to become manifest in social policy. Evolutionary theory then provides ultimate explanations for these phenomena, helping us understand and introduce corrective measures. What it does not do, as is often claimed, is condone immoral or amoral behaviour. Humans are highly evolved and profoundly moral animals and this fact is central to evolutionary theory."

Even if this were true, why does feminism need science to back it? Like I said we didn't need science to agree that apartheid in South Africa was wrong, or that slavery was an abomination. Also we didn't "instinctively" suspect these things, we observed them and their effect on women.

"I think it is very dangerous and, even more, unconscionable for feminism to take the irrational stand it does with evolutionary theory. To close your eyes to the truth is to turn your back on millions of women who need the help of a biologically and psychologically robust and intellectually sound feminism."

You're sounding like a bit of a dogmatist yourself (you already called it an ultimate explanation before). Feminism has always been intellecutally sound, it's only sexists who have never acknowledged female brainpower who like to argue otherwise.

"I think you said that women could never be safe until rape was wiped out. For rape to be wiped out is highly unlikely and to realistically expect such an outcome quite a dangerous delusion I think. It is akin to the abstinence movement to stop teenage pregnancies, more based on wishful thinking than pragmatism ? and it doesn?t help. You can no more expect to wipe out rape than you could murder. Society can implement policy and sanctions to lessen its extent, and it does. Crucially, evolutionary theory can make these policies and sanctions more robust when it comes to rape, not less so, not maintaining the status quo but rebuilding it!! That is what I am trying to do with my thesis now."

I thought your idea was that women shouldn't be left alone in a room with a man. It's not much of a sanction.
You're making huge claims for EP much bigger than anyone would dare to make for physics or chemistry say.

Monkeytrousers · 26/11/2007 16:25

Just glanced at the beginning of your post Eliz, and you know, it is the job of science itself to rigorously test data coming from other scientists ? that is what peer review is all about and why the scientific process is the best on ewe have at approaching something resembling the ?truth? of a matter.

Did you read T&P?s response to these critics that I posted? It shows, and embarrassingly demonstrates, the errors that these critics have walked straight into. I haven?t time until ton9ght to pint them out, but I will.

Also, their claim that ?First, Thornhill and Palmer make much of the claim that rape victims tend to be in their prime reproductive years, suggesting that reproduction is indeed a central part of the rapist's agenda.? Is clearly fallacious. I have in my hand a Hone Office document dated last year that corroborates their claim, and more of them. They go back to a 1992 study, without any description of methodology or what exactly ?rape? was defined as. The Home Office study does and more so.

I am sorry that you can?t actually look at the data with an open mind. Or read it for yourself. I was like you a few years ago, so was Griet Vandermassen; we came to change our opinions based on the evidence and with a moral conviction to do the best we can for women around the world; and that feminism embracing this kind of blind ignorance was putting those same women in great danger.

Will get back to this when ds is in bed.

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etin · 26/11/2007 16:54

"I was like you a few years ago, so was Griet Vandermassen;"....and Etin