what causes racial tension and what could be done to ease it?????

[law3]

I have started this thread because i feel it is an important subject. Please dont leave examples of how you/someone else have been discrimated against as this is counter productive. Just an honest and open debate please.

law3 - the point about not enough houses, jobs etc is where racism and immigration get mixed up.

I think there is a 'realistic' (as oppose to right) competition/fear amoungst the working classes that there will not be enough jobs, housing etc, etc and if something could be done to ease this, it would go a long way to easing tension.

ok. People can be racist (along with other reasons) due to ignorance, lack of understanding, lack of exposure. imo.

in brief:

Ignorance.

Education and demonstrating and teaching tolerance.

potoroo - so am i a immagrationist then as oppose to a racist!!!!

mytwo - sorry didnt mean to nit pick, i agree.

potroo - Do you think because you worked, people appreciated that fact, ie rather than claiming social security?

intergration - i would agree, if you dont speak the language, know the area, etc, etc you would tend to stick with what you know ie other people in the same boat.

I think perhaps this country should offer language courses for immigrants who cant speak English, what do you think??

from what i can make out one of the reasons is that some people feel that they are being treated as 2nd rate citizens in the country they were born in.

For some people it's resentment and frustration: their lives are shitty, they have no money, inadequate housing and schools etc, and it's an easy option to point to some category of 'others' and say that it's all their fault.
For people who are comfortably off, then racism is more about fear of the unknown or fear that more people moving into your town might mean you actually have to share some of your resources with them.

Basically, human beings are both socially co-operative (we need the company of others, we need the assistance of others) and agressively hostile (we divide the word intl 'us' and 'them' on all sorts of grounds, not just skin colour). THis is hard-wiring, pretty much, which takes some effort to overcome.

up until this point my view was there should be tighter immigratation, i dont think anyone should be stopped from coming to this Country, but if they are not prepared to support themselves, commit crime etc and not contribute to society, then should not be allowed to stay. I rationalised this because it is not based on anyones colour but my fear for my children's future and the drain on the ecomony. I know that lots of British people are already a drain, but saw it as added pressure.

so how do i overcome my feeling, is this rational, wrong, racist, immigrationist, do i need to overcome this feeling?????

I like the idea that racism is predominantly white working class and the product of generations of people being poorly housed and badly educated.

It's nice. It means that racism is a product of ignorance. It kind of cosily means that educated middle class people aren't racists - as how could they be? They are after all both educated and middle class.

Unfortunately that is far from the truth. On the thread I objected to there were both overt and covert racist sentiments and attitudes being penned (typed) by white middle class relatively literate people.

Just because someone is not waving a banner saying "Niggers Out" does not mean that they are not being racist. Oh no. It's much nastier and more insidious than that.

Hurly - hi, glad you have joined. how do you know that they were white, middle class????

hurly - i have to say there were people on that thread who were being pulled up for saying words i would not relate to being racist, which added to the tension and totally unproductive.

I think Britain should offer English classes to natives who can't speak English....

law3, are you aware that many immigrants are not allowed to work and are required to take benefits.

In my personal experience, when I lived in London, the only people that I could get to clean my house and do construction were non-British people. I was paying reasonable wages (significantly above minimum wage), but expected my workmen to show up on time, not take two zillion tea breaks and do quality work.

Law3: so what do you think should be done about British peope (ie people who were born in this country, as were their parents) who commit crimes, refuse to work, etc? Deportation? Where to?

As to the speaking of English if you want to live in England, that's not unreasonable. ANyone who wants to live in any country should be required to learn the language of that country (if you are arriving as a refugee you should be offered language classes as a priority, if you are a migrant through choice then you should be required to pass a basic test of linguistic competence before you can get longterm leave to remain).

cause: the mistaken belief that 'race' exists in anything other than a biological sense (it doesn't, it is a social construct, I said this already on the first thread but nobody commented).

this becomes exaggerated when groups are encouraged to see themselves as in competition with one another, e.g. in times of shortage (food, jobs, resources) or rapid social change.

ease: according to psychological research, the only real way for people to overcome racism is for groups to come together and work towards a percieved common goal (for example, Palestenians and Isrealis playing on the same football team).

There has been some really interesting research in this area, read about it here.

I have to agree that faith schools are partly to blame, in the sense that they reinforce the idea that humans are different based on artificial divisions, and prevent children from mixing from those who are different.

Lastly, I think it's worth pointing out that migration has taken place since the beginning of civilisations (meaning human groups living together and pooling resources) -- it is only natural for people to move in search of better resources, and it is also natural for those in possession of those resources to feel protective of them. Similarly, 'multiculturalism', has also always existed in a sense: there are always people within a majority group who find themselves in conflict with the norm, for any of a variety of reasons. I think the issues of racism and immigration, while linked, should be viewed as separate discussions.

Also, in response to the posts about language, there is a requirement for language competency (roughly intermediate level) for citizenship, and yet the government has been making harsh cutbacks in ESOL provision over the last few years.

law3 - I don't think you are either racist or immigrationist - I was just pointing out that the two issues (racism and immigration) aren't the same thing - although often interlinked.

English language courses ARE available to immigrants. Some of my colleagues were imported from other non-English speaking countries (because the expertise could not be found here) and they all did English language courses (not sure if it was free but if not, very cheap). Also, if you want to become a UK citizen you have to sit the test in English.

As for the benefits, unless you are a EU citizen you can't claim benefits in the UK as a new arrival - for up to four years. It is actually very difficult to get into the country legally (illegally is a whole other matter).

I can't say whether the fact that I have had no problems being accepted is because I was working (although that probably helped) or because English culture is so similar to Australian. Both help. Then again, my entire team at work with the exception of 1 person were born outside the UK...

Britain should make all immigrants take compulsory culture classes, especially with reference to British women. Sexism does seem to be an endemic part of some other cultures.

I'm not saying Britain's perfect either in this respect, but it's a hell of a lot better than 25 years ago, ime.

Well - the citizenship test handbook has a section on sexism... but what about those of us from cultures that aren't inherently sexist by British standards? How do you decide?

FWIW law3... I think this is a good thread

mademez - like I said before, its a pity about the fall of the Empire - you could deport all the British crims off to Australia

Not sure what you mean, potoroo.

Not quite sure why being proficient in English is somehow viewed as a gauge of how good a "citizen" you are or how much you can contribute to society. Not speaking English doesn't stop my cleaner from being reliable, honest and a good cleaner. It doesn't stop her son from getting straight A's in school and it doesn't stop her husband from being a reliable hardworking janitor. It does't stop them from paying taxes and it doesn't stop them from helping out their neighbors. I would much rather have my non-english speaking cleaner as my neighbor than my current slovenly English speaking ones. And I would much rather have her son in my children's classes than the current ill-behaved, lazy ones from English speaking families.

law3, to go back to your original question. I think that you need to stop making assumptions that are based on your narrow experience and understanding of the world. It is possible to be a good person in more than one way. And a little more tolerance of the different ways of doing things in the world would be really productive. Countries can't and don't remain as a static population that forever stays the same and always does things in exactly the same way. As Oregonian pointed out...immigration/migration has occurred since the start of time and it's not going to stop now just because some people tell all the "foreigners" that they are not welcome in Britain (or the USA, in my case) because they look or act differently.

You said all immigrants should take British culture classes. To become a British citizen you need to sit a test - and the study handbook for that test is pretty much all about British culture including rights of women etc.

Of course this won't apply to immigrants who stay here but do not become citizens.

My other point was there are lots of immigrants (especially short term ones) from Commonwealth countries - where the attitudes to women are the same as in the UK. So its not really a problem inherent in all immigrants IYSWIM.

(Sorry if I'm not being clear - I'm also trying to figure out if I'm in labour or not)