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Anyone a bit of a history geek?

13 replies

FurrySlipperBoots · 06/03/2020 18:32

Because will someone please tell me where the ship Wilhelm Gustloff was aiming for when it was sunk? I only heard about it for the first time the other day though a random youtube suggestion. It astonishes me that it's not better known, with such a massive death toll. Anyway, I've been trying to find out where it was going but I can't find any info! I'm intrigued to know which country was ready to welcome German refugees with open arms!?

OP posts:
isabellerossignol · 06/03/2020 18:37

I don't know but for some reason I had always assumed Norway? But I based that solely on the fact that it was occupied...

TheVanguardSix · 06/03/2020 18:40

My assumption is that it was going to Danzig (Free City), which was German at the time of the sinking and not yet known as Gdansk in today's Poland. I'll have to double check.

MmeAlice · 06/03/2020 18:42

According to wiki she was bound for Kiel en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hannibal can't do clicky link as on mobile

TheVanguardSix · 06/03/2020 18:55

I'm not sure though if I am right. What I can say is that this region of Eastern Europe and the Baltic, including Western Poland, was Prussian/German. My father was an Eastern European German, in other words, a German of the Eastern Provinces: Silesia, Prussia, for example.
As the Red Army approached the Eastern German Territories, those Germans of the East had to flee. This ship would have been taking Eastern Germans away from the danger zone (which the Reds captured) and into 'safer' parts of Germany not under threat by the Russians. They were referred to as Eastern German refugees. My grandmother fled the Red Army. They were Germans in a part of German Silesia called Breslau, now Wroclaw, Poland. My grandmother was on the last train out of her specific region. Dresden Germany in the Western part of Germany (it was a much bigger country back then) was the safe haven for Eastern German refugees. My grandmother arrived, got stuck on the train outside of the city and that night, the first night of the fire-bombing started. ANyway, that's a whole other story.
The reason we don't know much about the Wilhem Gustloff tragedy is because under the banner of Nazism, the Germans weren't allowed much room to mourn their own tragedies. Let's face it, it's been very hard to feel sorry for Germans given their place in history. But their own history during the war is tragic and they suffered abhorrently in the East. A great book is A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of East European Germans.
Anyway, this ship would have been taking Germans from the Eastern provinces to safer ones, away from the Red threat. The Red Army was not a pretty sight. I'd have chosen an American bullet over a Russian one any day.

TheVanguardSix · 06/03/2020 19:00

I'm intrigued to know which country was ready to welcome German refugees with open arms!?

So the short answer is, it was Germany, taking in its own German people being expelled from parts of the Eastern German Territories which the Russians were about to take over with absolute vengeance. I can't decide who was worse: Hitler or Stalin.

FurrySlipperBoots · 06/03/2020 19:25

Wow, that's really interesting! Thanks Vanguard! So what were 'German' civilians doing in Estonia/Latvia anyway? I know Germany was bigger but those were countries in their own right, even if they were under Nazi rule right? Or were the people just referred to as 'German' because at that point it was German territory, even if they were of Latvian/Estonian/Polish descent? I'm sorry if I'm asking silly questions, but there's so much of 'history' it's hard to make sense of it all.

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TheVanguardSix · 06/03/2020 20:02

You're very welcome! And there is no such thing as a silly question! Smile It's a complex history and to be honest, even I find it confusing!
The Baltic Germans had been settled in pockets of those (Estonian/Latvian) regions for centuries, including Russia. The Baltic Germans would be ethnic Germans but Latvian citizens, or Citizens of Imperial Russia, for example, up until 1918. Prior to WW2 there were more 'Germans' in Eastern Europe than in actual Germany. You have the Danube Germans known as the Banat and Danube Swabians who were (and still are to a small extent) in Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, the former Yugoslavia. But World War 2 really saw an end to the ethnic Eastern Germans. There was no way the Russian Army was going to show mercy towards any Germans in those regions the Soviets were conquering. And of course, Germany lost its Eastern territories to the Russians in WW2, so if you were an ethnic Eastern German, you fled, if at all possible, to Germany proper. The Baltic Germans, as the Soviets took over Latvia and Estonia, were then resettled in Germany (what was then Germany and is now Western Poland) in 1939. Those who refused to leave their Baltic homeland were at the mercy of the Soviets and they either survived by marrying into the local Latvian/Estonian population and therefore no longer identified as Germans, or, if they did not do this, they were transferred to the Soviet gulags or simply killed by the Soviet army.

FurrySlipperBoots · 06/03/2020 20:29

Ah of course! Like you can be ethnically Indian, but a British citizen. That makes sense.

It's terribly sad that they were largely against Hitler themselves and yet were still used as a scapegoat. I know the Russians showed no mercy at all. What a shitty situation.

How do you know so much about it Vanguard? I know it's part of your family history, but did you study it in further education?

OP posts:
ArriettyJones · 06/03/2020 20:53

No idea, but interested so bookmarking for tomorrow.

TheVanguardSix · 07/03/2020 13:25

Hello again. Smile

I wish I could say "Oh I'm a historian" Grin but actually, I've just read a lot on the subject. Like you, I stumbled upon something/a historical event that intrigued me and I slipped down the wormhole and followed my curiosity, which led to all sorts of books and online articles and interviews. Also, as my aunt (who died last year at the age of 100) my father's sister- throughout my adulthood, began telling me things in snippets, what it was like to be a child of war, a child of the Eastern Territories, a child of a Jewish parent and a Catholic one in an unforgiving climate, my grandfather's death and the death of his entire family, my grandmother's arrival as an Eastern refugee the day of the Dresden bombing, the raping, and all that comes with being unsafe an exposed as a woman, regardless of what side your male soldiers are fighting for. In war, there are no good sides. Women in war, children of war, they pay the entire price, in my humble view. The boys become cannon fodder, the women and the children become outlets for unchecked, unleashed rage- a side effect of war turning men savage. And we see this again and again. If you read about the Killing Fields of Cambodia and the barbaric acts carried out on women and children there and again, the ethnic cleansing throughout Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge regime, the more recent trials and genocide of the Yazidis, it is really, really, really hard to have faith in a species so driven by war, brutality, and domination. But we must have some faith in humankind. If we don't, that lack of faith in itself is destructive.

I always wonder, when I read these historical accounts of atrocities carried out by people who, under different circumstances would have been normal individuals, who were you when the whole of you was still good? And what would that old version of you think, looking at what you became and what you've done?

My dad, in his teens, ended up in a prison camp, defusing landmines on a beach. He was 16. He'd spent his early years of his childhood held in a detention camp for mixed children (of Jewish and Christian heritage), then he was released to serve as a soldier. Go figure. He was Aryan enough to hold a gun, it seems. It was the better toss of a very bad coin. There's a beautiful film about this- a very tough watch- called Land of Mine. I found it incredibly painful to watch, knowing that my dad had been one of those boys (on a different beach, but same story- different outcome). But it was a great reminder that in war, there is no love or protection for the people we rally around the most in everyday life, children. We spend our lives worrying about them. In war, that care for the young, that care for anyone and everyone, goes out the window.
We had cities like Coventry and Dresden firebombed in the war. It is really hard to listen to interviews of the bombers justifying their actions while the viewer is looking at images of melted prams with the charred fingers of a baby gripping onto its side. They were just doing their job, is the attitude of some of those pilots. Others never sleep peacefully again.

Anyway, I am off on a wild tangent.
But for example, if you look at the Russian city Kaliningrad, you and most people won't know that from 1255-1945, that's over 700 years, it was a Prussian city, Koenigsburg (the well-known artist Kathe Kollwitz, came from Koeningsburg- she is an incredibly interesting woman and the stories she tells through art are painful).
And so, this is just an example of what became of previous parts of Germany. I still think of my dad's town as Breslau (Wrocklaw), for example- mainly because I can't pronounce Wroclaw, if I'm completely honest! Grin

This is an interesting link that explains the region of Courland, from where the Wilhem Gustloff was collecting refugees fleeing the Red Army. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland
"The Wilhelm Gustloff's final voyage was to evacuate German refugees, military personnel, and technicians from Courland, East Prussia, and Danzig-West Prussia. Many had worked at advanced weapon bases in the Baltic [14] from Gdynia/Gotenhafen to Kiel."

I find this very sad "As Wilhelm Gustloff had been fitted with anti-aircraft guns, and the Germans did not mark her as a hospital ship, no notification of her operating in a hospital capacity had been given and, as she was transporting token numbers of military personnel, she did not have any protection as a hospital ship under international accords"
If only it had been marked as a hospital ship. What a different outcome that would have been... possibly! I don't know though, those Soviets could be ruthless. Maybe being marked as a hospital ship still wouldn't have stopped them.

TheVanguardSix · 07/03/2020 13:53

Oh my goodness, I just read this back and I sound like such a condescending jerk!
"But for example, if you look at the Russian city Kaliningrad, you and most people won't know that from 1255-1945, that's over 700 years, it was a Prussian city."
You may know everything about this and I am assuming that you don't. I am terribly sorry. A better way of writing this would have been, "You and many others may or may not know..."
I am so sorry!
And it's out there, all of this is common knowledge but you just have to fish around for it online (like you did with this amazing Wilhelm Gustloff tragedy, which I know so very little about, so thank you much for enlightening me!).

I find Reddit brilliant for having good, juicy chats about historical events. I mean, some users can get a bit silly but you get a lot of history buffs combined with curious users just wanting to learn about something they've just discovered and it can be good fun.

keiratwiceknightly · 07/03/2020 14:01

Op, have you found the history club section on mn?

TheVanguardSix · 07/03/2020 14:15

I know I'm not the OP, but I didn't even know there was a history club section! Grin Thanks for the heads-up keira. You know what's quite good as well, the BBC History Extra Podcast (I listen through Spotify).

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