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Breastfeeding at 8 years old.

99 replies

Jbr · 23/08/2002 15:25

A woman in the US has been warned for breastfeeding an 8 year old boy.

OP posts:
bells2 · 29/08/2002 07:56

I'm infuriated by it too KS and I haven't even breastfed a child beyond 2!. It is so absurd to take an arbitrary age which in any case is in line with the WHO guidelines and label mothers in this way.

Willow2 · 29/08/2002 08:56

KS - don't want you to think that I was having a pop at your long term bf - not at all. But do think there is a big difference between 5 and 8.

ks · 29/08/2002 09:32

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susanmt · 29/08/2002 10:18

ks - there may be more things in life than Gina Ford's Philosophy, but there are an awful lot of people out there for whom it is the only way. Just think how much they are missing out on!

PamT · 29/08/2002 10:29

KS, one of the doctors at my health centre has four children and was still breastfeeding at age 4/5 from what I have heard - so if its good enough for a doctor then why not?

Personally I have always felt guilty for bottlefeeding but never felt comfortable myself breastfeeding. I look at my eldest 2 boys (6 and 9) and just can't imagine them being breastfed at their ages.

Croppy · 29/08/2002 10:40

Not to mention Susanmt all that needless worry about so called "bad habits"!!!!!

ks · 29/08/2002 11:08

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susanmt · 29/08/2002 11:30

We should have a thread where we can say all these things about GF and people who like her don't have to go and then we can let off steam!

Jbr · 29/08/2002 14:51

Or "experts" in general!

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ks · 29/08/2002 14:52

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susanmt · 29/08/2002 14:57

OK I started the conversation - it's called 'Slagging Off The Childcare Gurus'

Enjoy, ladies!!

ks · 29/08/2002 15:00

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susanmt · 29/08/2002 15:01

Just did - see below!

ks · 29/08/2002 15:01

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smokey · 29/08/2002 18:04

At ds's 18 month check, I asked my health visitor for advice on how to stop breastfeeding. She advised me not to tell family and friends that I was still breastfeeding as she said that some experts considered breastfeeding beyond 1 year to be a form of sexual abuse.

I took issue with her and asked whether she considered mothers in developing countries were abusing their children through poverty and/or ignorance. She then claimed not to believe it herself but thought she ought to warn me!
She had no idea at all about how I should stop breastfeeding. I had to contact La Leche league who were very helpful. I eventually stopped when ds was 21 months and later went on to feed dd until she was 21 months old too.

Admittedly, this occurred some 8 years ago, so maybe (hopefully) health vistors are more enlightened now.

smokey · 30/08/2002 00:29

Obviously not....

'A midwife and health visitor I know says that women who breastfeed their babies beyond a year are doing it for themselves rather than the baby; i.e. it confers no developmental or health advantages for the child.'

A quote found tonight on the liberal Guardian site....

Fionn · 30/08/2002 07:30

At the risk of being subjected to a virtual hanging, drawing and quartering, and with no intention of offending anybody, I have to say I agree with the Guardian article. What are the health and developmental benefits for the child being breastfed after 15 months or so?
I'm going to regret posting this...!

ks · 30/08/2002 07:57

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Croppy · 30/08/2002 08:56

Well I'll kick off by asking what the health and developmental benefits of cows milk are after 15 months????

Demented · 30/08/2002 09:11

Well said Croppy!

SueDonim · 30/08/2002 09:44

Perhaps people are unaware that the WHO Code now recommends breastfeeding for 2 years.

There's an article on the benefits of breastfeeding toddlers here and I'll post another link about extended bfing and the law in another post. You might find them both interesting, KS!

SueDonim · 30/08/2002 09:48

An article about extended bfing and the law (in the US) here .

Eulalia · 30/08/2002 10:06

Ks

Fionn ? the benefits are the same as they were before 15 months. A baby doesn?t suddenly know it is 15 months and immediately think that it doesn?t need breastmilk for food, immunity and comfort.

As everyone here knows I breastfed ds regularly till he was well over 2 (and still am ?part time? and he is over 3 now). In the first 2 years he was never ill and I do mean never. He finally threw up for the first time in his life at age 2.5 with a tummy bug. He has never had diarrhoea or an ear infection or a temperature longer than 12 hours. As far as comfort is concerned I could immediately stop a toddler tantrum by breastfeeding. It worked like magic after a hernia operation at age 16 months where he only cried from the time it took to wheel him out of the theatre to get to me. Other babies/toddlers in the ward were being pacified with dummies which didn?t seem to work so I sat there with perfectly peaceful child listening to them whimpering. As we all know having seen toddlers with dummies the urge to comfort suck is strong and it is natural to want to do it at the breast ? strangely they prefer that to a cold piece of twisted silicone

In my view weaning should be a gradual, slow process and not involve looking at the calendar. Developmentally he is no different from any other 3 year old ? in fact he is extremely confident and quite happily goes off on his own to playgroup. It just isn?t a big issue. Does that answer your questions?

Ks ? have you read any of Kathy Dettwyler?s stuff on the web? Here as excerpt ...

A Natural Age of Weaning
by Katherine Dettwyler, PhD

Department of Anthropology,
Texas A and M University

My research has looked at the various "life-history" variables (such as length of gestation, birth weight, growth rate, age at sexual maturity, age at eruption of teeth, life span, etc.) in non-human primates and then looked at how these variables correlate with age at weaning in these animals. These are our closest relatives in the animal kingdom, especially gorillas and chimpanzees, who share more than 98% of their genes with humans. I came up with a number of predictions for when humans would "naturally" wean their children if they didn't have a lot of cultural rules about it. This interest stemmed from a reading of the cross-cultural literature on age at weaning, which shows that cultures have very different beliefs about when children should be weaned, from very early in the U.S. to very late in some places. One often hears that the worldwide average age of weaning is 4.2 years, but this figure is neither accurate nor meaningful. A survey of 64 "traditional" studies done prior to the 1940s showed a median duration of breastfeeding of about 2.8 years, but with some societies breastfeeding for much shorter, and some for much longer. It is meaningless, statistically, to speak of an average age of weaning worldwide, as so many children never nurse at all, or their mothers give up in the first few days, or at six weeks when they go back to work. It is true that there are still many societies in the world where children are routinely breastfed until the age of four or five years or older, and even in the United States, some children are nursed for this long and longer. In societies where children are allowed to nurse "as long as they want" they usually self-wean, with no arguments or emotional trauma, between 3 and 4 years of age. This interest also stemmed from the realization that other animals have "natural" ages of weaning, around 8 weeks for dogs, 8-12 months for horses, etc. Presumably these animals don't have cultural beliefs about when it would be appropriate.
Some of the results are as follows:

  1. In a group of 21 species of non-human primates (monkeys and apes) studied by Holly Smith, she found that the offspring were weaned at the same time they were getting their first permanent molars. In humans, that would be: 5.5-6.0 years.
  2. It has been common for pediatricians to claim that length of gestation is approximately equal to length of nursing in many species, suggesting a weaning age of 9 months for humans. However, this relationship turns out to be affected by how large the adult animals are -- the larger the adults, the longer the length of breastfeeding relative to gestation. For chimpanzees and gorillas, the two primates closest in size to humans and also the most closely genetically related, the relationship is 6 to 1. That is to say, they nurse their offspring for SIX times the length of gestation (actually 6.1 for chimps and 6.4 for gorillas, with humans mid-way in size between these two). In humans, that would be: 4.5 years of nursing (six times the 9 months of gestation).
  3. It has been common for pediatricians to claim that most mammals wean their offspring when they have tripled their birth weight, suggesting a weaning age of 1 year in humans. Again though, this is affected by body weight, with larger mammals nursing their offspring until they have quadrupled their birth weight. In humans, quadrupling of birth weight occurs between 2.5 and 3.5 years, usually.
  4. One study of primates showed that the offspring were weaned when they had reached about 1/3 their adult weight. This happens in humans at about 5-7 years.
  5. A comparison of weaning age and sexual maturity in non-human primates suggests a weaning age of 6-7 for humans (about half-way to reproductive maturity).
  6. Studies have shown that a child's immune system doesn't completely mature until about 6 years of age, and it is well established that breast milk helps develop the immune system and augment it with maternal antibodies as long as breast milk is produced (up to two years, no studies have been done on breast milk composition after two years post partum). And on and on. The minimum predicted age for a natural age of weaning in humans is 2.5 years, with a maximum of 7.0 years. In terms of the benefits of extended breastfeeding, there have been a number of studies comparing breastfed and bottlefed babies in terms of the frequency of various diseases, and also IQ achievement. In every case, the breastfed babies had lower risk of disease and higher IQs than the bottle-fed babies. In those studies that divided breastfed babies into categories based on length of breastfeeding, the babies breastfed the longest did better in terms of both lower disease and higher IQ. In other words, if the categories were 0-6 months of breastfeeding, 6-12 months, 12-18 months and 18-24+ months, then the 18-24+ month babies did the best, and the 12-18 month babies did the next best, and the 6-12 months babies did the next best, and the 0-6 months babies did the worst of the breastfed groups, but still much better than the bottlefeeding group. This has been shown for gastrointestinal illness, upper respiratory illness, multiple sclerosis, diabetes, heart disease, and on and on and on. Likewise, the babies nursed the longest scored the highest on the IQ tests. One important point to notice is that none of these studies looked at children who had nursed longer than 2 years. Anyone 18-24 month or longer was lumped into big category. Presumably, the benefits continue to accrue, as your body doesn't know that the baby has bad a birth day and suddenly start producing nutritionally and immunologically worthless milk. However, no one has yet proved, either way, that the benefits of breastfeeding either continue or stop at two years of age, because the appropriate studies have not been done. The trend during the first two years is clearly for continuing benefits the longer you nurse. Clearly the phenomenon of dimishing returns is at work here -- the first six months of breastfeeding are clearly much more important in terms of the baby's nutrition and immunological development than the six months from 3.5 to 4.0 years. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't continue to provide breast milk if your baby wants and you don't mind. It would be like saying, "Well Mabel, we don't get very much income from that oil well anymore. Used to get $56 a month in royalties, now we're lucky if we get $25 a year. Guess we should tell that oil company just to keep their durn money." And Mabel says, in return "Good grief, Clyde, don't be ridiculous. That check still buys $25 worth of food. Where has your mind gone to now?" Clearly, babies born in the U.S. don't have to contend with all the diseases and parasites and contaminated water that babies in Third World countries do. We have more supplementary foods that we can generally trust to be safe and clean. We can get our children immunized, and get them antibiotics for infections when necessary. The fact that we can does not mean that breastfeeding is unimportant. Breastfed babies still have the "edge" over bottlefed babies, even in a squeaky clean environment with wonderful medical care. They get sick less often, they are smarter, they are happier. Another important consideration for the older child is that they are able to maintain their emotional attachment to a person, rather than being forced to switch to an inanimate object such as a teddy bear or blanket. I think this sets the stage for a life of people-orientation, rather than materialism, and I think that is a good thing. I also can't imagine living through the toddler years without that close loving connection to a child going through enormous changes, some of which are very frustrating to the child. I could go on forever, but will stop here. I hope this has been of help. These ideas are developed much more eloquently and in much greater detail in my chapter "A Time to Wean" in Breastfeeding: Biocultural Perspectives, being published by Aldine de Gruyter. Prepared August 3, 1995. Edited February 10, 1997.
Eulalia · 30/08/2002 10:07

sorry I must learn how to put proper links in to save pasting a lot of text.

florenceuk · 30/08/2002 10:30

Actually I read another article on the Net about Lynn Stuckey and she did not strike me as unbalanced, just very "American" if you know what I mean. She actually had her child taken away and put into foster care at 5yrs old because of the breastfeeding, and eventually had him returned 3 mths later when she promised to stop - but then went on TV three years later to claim that it was all very natural and they were just a normal family. Feeding appeared to be solely a comfort thing - a bit like sucking a thumb - and, she claimed, her son was well-adjusted etc etc. Personally I think she was mad to flout the court order, go public and risk losing her child again - this to my mind was MUCH worse than the revelation that she was still BF at 8yrs old.

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