Further to The God Survey: evidence

[UnquietDad]

Twiglett is conducting a God Survey here .

soph28 asked
"Just curious how many YES's have firm evidence for believing and how many NO's do?"

This is a thread for exploring that question.

It is clearly impossible to prove the non-ness of anything, whether that thing be the Christian God, Apollo, Ra or the Great Spaghetti Monster. Therefore one should not be expected to do so, but rather to examine the evidence and see if it is compelling. It's what you do with everything else.

You're at liberty to believe, for example, there's no such thing as gravity, or oxygen, or the Moon, but I can offer you compelling evidence to the contrary, to which there is little or flimsy counter-evidence. At the end of the debate you can carry on believing it doesn't exist, but the peer-reviewed, testable and detectable evidence is clearly there. And if, one day, compelling evidence is given that Newton's theories are wrong, this will be published, examined, scrutinised and weighed up - and eventually, if has the consensus of the scientific community, the new theory will be adopted. It's what happened with that Phlogiston , for example.

As soon as you start debating, of course, you end up having to define yourself in terms laid down by the other side. This is partly why Prof. Dawkins doesn't do it, much to the chagrin of creationists... Imagine having to debate with people who regularly asserted that the Earth was flat, or that the Moon was made of green cheese. You'd maybe do it once. And then they'd keep coming back again, and again, and again, demanding a platform with you. It enhances their spurious credentials to have a debate with a leading scientist, and does not add a jot to yours - in fact, it cheapens your reputation.

i have an unusual take on relgion i think.

i believe in a higher power, a divine force or forces that shape our universe. however i also believe that each individual human being is resposible for their own actions and shapes their own life.

i believe in karma and i believe that all things have a spirit and we must live in harmony with the spirits of the creatures, plants and earth around us to be at peace.

i believe the soul lives on after death but i don't presume to know in what form. i believe a soul is melded to an embryo at the very moment of conception and for that reason i have personal issues with abortion, but believe it is a choice each woman must make herself.

i believe if i lead a good life (by good i mean true to myself and always trying to make the right moral choice even if it's harder) and that i will be judged in some way when i die. i do not fear death but i want to live my life to the full before i find out whether my theories are correct!

on that note, i had an interesting converstion with my parents recently. my father was ranting about muslims and i engaged him in a debate on the subject. his fears and paranoia make him think that if we do not treat them any better in our countries than they treat us in theirs (ie; not allowing the wearing of headscarves that's going on in some european countries on the grounds that when we visit their countries they insist on women being covered up) that they will somehow assimilate all the inhabitants of the western world through terrorist actions and violance (my fathers craziness not mine i hasten to point out!).

i pointed out that no-one can force another human being to betray their own beliefs or nature, all humans are born with free will and the choice to believe and behave whatever and however they want, to which he said 'of course they can, if they hold a gun to your head'. but for me that's not the case, i would rather die than be untrue to myself out of fear.

on further conversation it turns out that his fear lies in the fact that he has no belief in an afterlife whereas i do, i have no fear of death as long as i have lived a good and true life, he is terrified of death and in that fear stems his anger and hatred and the belief that he can be forced to conform or to betray his own nature by another.

it was eye opening for me, although i've probably not explained it very well as ds is crushing my arm and i'm typing too fast!

PT you are a Jain (or Hindu) LOL

Actually what I understand by your e-mail rings true for me in many palces, not so sure about higher power but everything else I agree with I think- although I might do things I thought were worng if someone held a gun to my kids heads.

Ok , of course nothing here can be clearly proved or disproved but I do believe in God for a variety of reasons:

The earth itself and the fact that it sustains such complex and sophisticated forms of life - the odds of this happening by chance appear to me less than negligible. I just cannot believe that this could all have happened by accident - there has to be a Creator. We have not come across this kind of life on any other planet.

The fact that we have been given a sense of morality, to know the difference between right and wrong. This makes me think that we will be called on to account for ourselves.

The amount of suffering in the world, the fact that so many children die prematurely, that so many people seem to have come into this world to endure horrible things and that so many awful people and deeds go unpunished. I just can't accept that this is it, there has to be justice in the end and there has to be something better for all those people who suffer in this life.

PT

I feel very sorry for your father. Fear of death is one of the ways religions make their money. They promise life after death to people who fund them.

I know there is no afterlife, but I dont fear death. It is just nature. We dont own this planet, we are just a product of the situation. Plants grow, they die, same as animals and humans. Get over it! Just because we have brains and the spare time to obsess about things doesnt mean they exist.

He really should stop reading the daily mail though, it will send him to an early grave.

But morality varies doen't it?

To a Jain ligting a fire accrues bad karma and there's a system to prevent ascetics having to do this (the lay peolpe cook for them and boil their water)

but we don't generally share that morality

likewise in Judaism abortion is acceptable but nt in many other faiths

Saadia

Oh dear!

"The earth itself and the fact that it sustains such complex and sophisticated forms of life - the odds of this happening by chance appear to me less than negligible. I just cannot believe that this could all have happened by accident - there has to be a Creator. We have not come across this kind of life on any other planet."

The very fact that there is such complex and sophisticated life is virtual proof that there is NO creator. Your problem is you dont really have any concept of geological time. All these complex things evolved over hundreds of billions of years. They didnt just spring into existence in their compex form in an instant.

"The amount of suffering in the world, the fact that so many children die prematurely, that so many people seem to have come into this world to endure horrible things and that so many awful people and deeds go unpunished. I just can't accept that this is it, there has to be justice in the end and there has to be something better for all those people who suffer in this life. "

That's a lovely thought, but it's just the human race for you. Evil lot that they are!

I have no compelling evidence for the existence of God (of course). I just believe.
And surely any evidence against the existence of God depends on the nature of the god in question.

Not a good position from which to debate. Which is why I don't debate the existence of God.

Did you see this ?

you may think I am naive, but my brain just cannot comprehend the idea of there not being a God - the signs are all there if you want to see them.

The term 'faith' is all important. We are asked to have faith in something which cannot be proven.Therefore those of us who do believe in god cannot win this argument. We cannot prove to you what there is no proof for. That is why faith is the ultimate challenge. It is a catch 22.If you would like to know why i believe in God then that is a different assertion from the OP.

All the signs are there?!

What rot!

What you see is just the world working. Things grow, things die, clouds come, rains come, the sun comes up. Nothing in this world cannot be explained by science.

Just an anecdote but a few eyars back we were in the welsh Valleys and someone turned to me and said 'when you see this you can feel the existence of God can't you?'

Good point said I

But only one I'd accept from someone looking at the council estates in the valleys below

Either there is or isnt a God, its not variant on how pretty somewhere is

And if there is a God who provides an afterlife etc to all the pain and children who die ealry- well a lot oft hat isnt human created (tsunami, etc etc) so why doesn't He just stop it?

actually this is a pointless discussion, and I can see it deteriorating so I'll withdraw.

It is pointless, because as someone said its purely whether tou have faith or not. That is the crux.

Its also irrelevant as longas you don't use athreism as an excuse to be nasty or immoral.

Thats why we have 'faith' and you don't. Ultimatley this argument will not go anywhere. you will say proove it or why doesn't god stop it etc etc. How are we supposed to know? we believe you don't simple as.. nothing can be done to change your mind. nothing can be done to change mine. but hail the onslaught of another 300 posts. People saying they can prove the bible is wrong and contradictory. somone coming on sayingthey have a doctorate in RE and they an say with certainty that the dominant ideology most certainly came from a tape worm in the african jungle ( or whatever) you say tomato.... there cannot be a good outcome to this.

I got really upset with a 'born again' christian in my office a couple of years ago, who told me that at a dinner party one weekend her husband and their friends had all agreed it was 'interesting' that the tsunami had mainly killed muslims.

I was horrified.

There was nothing 'interesting' about it. Mainly muslims died because it was off the coast of indonesia, a predominately muslim place. If it had happened off the coast of italy it would have been mainly catholics.

But what she was saying was that her god had chosen muslims to die. This was deeply disturbing to me, as she was once a sensible woman.

"The earth itself and the fact that it sustains such complex and sophisticated forms of life - the odds of this happening by chance appear to me less than negligible."

Saadia, atheists would certainly agree with you that the complexity and sophistication are unlikely to be the result of chance, but the point is that there is a mechanism which explains them, evolution. You start with very simple life forms and they evolve into something more complex.

Someone on MN DOES have a doctorate in Theology, she believes actually.

Just beacuse the Bible isn't provable (and it is known as fact to be a human construct, there were recorded meetings deciding what went in and didnt) doesnt mean there is a God or not. It has zilch bearing on that. God could give humanity anything and Humanity would change it after all.

Anyone who cares much what someone else believes has got it all wrong imo. Its about how you live your act. Each person has a right to believe what they want as long as they dont ahrm others or try to enforce it. Faith aprticularly as it isnt teachable.

As to whether I could be cnvinced- I have yet to find anything that matches my beliefs but that doesnt mean its not out there. And plnty of epole are converted, either way.

Evolution is the opposite of 'chance' or 'accident'!

LostPuppy. You might want to try being a little less aggressive.

I do understand that complexity is not proof for the existence of a creator. But I don't see how it is 'virtual proof' against a creator. Are you referring to the fossil record and evidence supporting evolution, rahter than complexity per se?

There is no proof against a creator

How could there be?

There is evidence to suggest of course, but thats it

Beyond that we are each free to make up our own minds.

Most faiths accept that as part of God's plan; some insist that God chose those he wants and doesn't, and calls those he does (Paul in Christianity iirc, the Hindu concept that to be a Hindu you must be Indian (the rest of us have to wait until we are incarnated as Indian))

peachy, i think we have quite similar beliefs. the only other person i've ever met with beliefs as similar to mine is dp

lostpuppy, my father knows more about religion than most, his grandparents were the children of protestant ministers, his mother was born into a very catholic family, he has copies of bibles and korans in several languages and has read more of them than most. he shies away from all religions, not just Muslims and he has never read the daily mail in his life.

there is no need to turn what is a perfectly friendly intelligent debate into a slagging match. a lack of belief is fine, as long as you don't feel the need to attack others for believing in whatever they choose to, that's exactly the sort of attitude all those who start wars for their faith have.

belief is belief exactly because it cannot be proven, cannot be touched or felt or have it's picture taken. and it is incorrect to presume that if someone has belief in a higher power they cannot accept scientific fact.

i dispute no scientific facts, understand evolution and genetics and the laws of physics but i still believe there is a higher consciousness in play in our universe and in every atom and molecule around us. that does not affect my understanding or acceptance of the scientific truths of this universe one bit

I am very very much on the fence here but I suspect as long as
science cannot prove conclusively what us humans are doing here,
in fact what the point of this universe is, there will always be
room for religion.

What is the point of us, of our existence, of this planet?

You can talk about 'Big Bang', 'primordial soup' and 'survival machines
for genes' - and a lot of that makes sense intellectually - but there is still
an urgent need for spiritual meaning.

Hate to be linking to the Daily Mail but I am following this debate
with interest.

Hi becky

Please dont take assertiveness to be aggression.

It is highly improbable that pure chance could be responsible for the design of something as complex as life. But then it is even less probable that some kind of creator is the designer, because then you would have to ask, ?who created the creator?? A creator would have to be at least as complex as its design, and therefore at least as improbable.

The beauty of natural selection is that it breaks the creation of something up into miniscule steps, each small step being so much less improbable that in a strange kind of way, it becomes probable.

The who created the creator thing depends on which creation story and which religion

In Jainism there is no creator but theres a huge cosmology of endless worlds

In Hinduism, the world is created and uncreated endlessly by Gods who are aspects of another God who is overall Creator, but he is an unmanifest Creator- more of an essence

iyswim

Yep. I think we're getting into the whole nature of the thing under discussion area here. The whole "who created the creator" thing is a prime example.

I'm just saying that saying something is improbable is not the same as saying there is 'virtual proof' against it.