racism and mumsnet talk

[hatter]

Does anyone else out there think that the rules of Mumsnet Talk should include an explicit reference to racism? As they stand they actually only really rule out personal attacks - which kind of implies attacks on fellow participants. I know this can get horribly complex - for one thing there are many other forms of intolerance so does it make sense to be explicit only about one particular form? Or should it be extended to other forms? I expect the powers that be have already considered this. And I'm not yet sure where I stand myself. However, I do know that , for example my own work place has very strong written guidelines on intolerance and I certainly feel happier that they are there. But - obviously - this isn't a work place. Anyway I thought it would be an interesting debate in light of recent postings

in one sence i do agree with you one hundred percent but on the other hand you are taking away the freedom of speach just because we dont agree with there opinion it is still there opinion and they could see it as a form of rasim by trying to withold there right to a opinion i think the best thing you can do with these people is as i do and just ignor them and hope they go away

It might be worth you emailing Carrie et al on [email protected] to make your point Hatter, it's an interesting idea.

Mummytojames,

I take your point - to an extent. And I did indeed choose not to participate in the postings in question. But, without wanting to get too technical or legalistic, the right to freedom of speech - as guaranteed in national and international law - does not entitle you to say exactly what you want. It is a right that has to be balanced against other rights. For example (AND I SRESS THAT THIS IS NOT DIRECTLY RELEVANT TO THIS PARTICULAR CASE) banning racist remarks that amount to incitement to violence would not infringe on the right to free speech.(And indeed the govt does ban incitement to violence - it's against the law). Taking a slightly different tack, banning other racist remarks on Mumsnet wouldn't infringe on the right to free speech, because people in this country have plenty of other opportunities/forums to express these views. A private enterprise, or a community, or a workplace, is entitled to set rules on issues like this and it wouldn't amount to taking away free speech. I acknowledge that plenty of people would argue with me on this point and would try to use the free speech argument against me, but they would not be referring to the right to free speech as it actually exists in law. Apologies for throwing technicalities but the basic point - that free speech is not an absolute right - is an important one.

It would be interesting to see how that would be worked out though because there will be those who are less tolerant of others, more enlightened people should then try and educate not berate. If you don't allow those who are less tolerant to say their piece then you run the risk of not being able to change their mind, and that can be done with the right words and tone.

However there are of course certain words that should be banned. I don't need to mention them as everyone knows them, but we have freedom of speech, no matter what that is.

is it necessary to go to the point of enforcing this through rules? the nature of mumsnet is, in my experience over the last two years, that if someone offends others (or all of us) through their posting, other members make their views known v. forceably and if necessary highlight it initially with the moderator. this has happened in the past to the point of hounding people off the site for good.

i work in the public sector where equal opps is absolutely part and parcel of every day life, so while I appreciate what's being said, I do just wonder whether we shouldn't police ourselves? Otherwise it will get enormously complex, as you suggested, with people trying to work out whether someone has or hasn't contravened the rules. Can't see us tolerating someone who is extreme....

Would it be better if the talk section gateway had one or two sentences in terms of mumsnet talk's general philosophy - a kind of mission statement?

lalaa,

still to really make my mind up but I think I could lean your way - you've obvisouly been around for longer than me, and have seen that the system works as it is. And the idea of someone having the responsibilty for interpreting rules sends shudders down my spine!

One of the things I love about MN is that it isn't overly policed - Carrie, Justine and Rachel (and the mods!) are not obtrusive in their presence, it is not overloaded with rules and regulations and is largely self-governing. I think that is what makes it (mostly ) a laid back sort of site.

Rows do blow up from time to time, people flounce (and invariably come back), and life goes on. I think it would be realy sad if the recent threads caused any kind of policy change. If there is an blatantly racist/sexist/offensive post it is deleted: making more rules would not deter that kind of inflammatory poster.

Just my two penno'rth, hatter - but, as you acknowledge, I think it becomes a quagmire if one starts trying to draw up exhaustive guidelines, covering all eventualities, to police a site such as this.

I guess - as a newcomer - that this was just the first time I've witnessed a real row. And whilst I was heartened by the overall thrust of the vast majority of posts I sort of found it all a bit upsetting. From what people have said tho' the system seems to work so no need to fix it. And I can really see how making things more complex could have a detrimental effect on the overall atmosphere

Stick around, hatter...there'll be more

And they always blow over so don't be upset!

What have I missed? - what recent posts (sorry shameless noseyness)

HMC - Have a look at the "Muslims - No!" thread for starters.

Then follow on with "Muslims - Yes!".....

Thanks coppertop...

Have just read the muslims - no thread and it was fascinating but loooong!

Think I'll have to get a good night's sleep before I tackle the mumslims - yes thread.

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I like the idea of villages too.

RobinW: re Wiltshire alledgedly getting bullied. I am sick of being told off for reacting to her post, and sick of the assumption that because someone holds a 'minority' view they are 'brave' to express it and necessarily an underdog and everyone else should hold off having a reaction to their views.

I was one of the VERY few people on any of these threads who had actually watched the programme that Wiltshire was referring to. At no point in the programme did anyone imply that anyone SHOULD wear a hijab. They were very intelligent, articulate strong women explaining why they, personally, chose to wear a simple headscarf, and in one case, more encompassing clothing. The womwn were sensitive and likeable. Wiltshire said that people who chosse to wear a hijab - a headscarf - should go and live elsewhere.

Nevertheless, the discussion which followed was interesting and largely constructive. When WQiltshire came back, she was aggressive, she introduced insulting language...and went on to say that it is because of 'multicultural' people that she feels she has had to leave London, and cites one badly behaved (or maybe ill and desparate) person who got caught short in her garden - and was an Arab.

The 'multicultural' people she describes are MY FAMILY. My dp and my baby son. The people she so freely generalises about are my loved flesh and blood.

Nevertheless, I felt no need to get personal in the discussion - except to say i was 'repelled' by the view that someone who wishes to wear a headscarf should go to another country. I am repelled by the need for a society which cannot incorporate the wearing of a headscarf which does no harm to anyone else. I do believe it is important for people to be able to express and discuss their views, and even more important, actually, for us to know how others think and view our world. I would have welcomed an ongoing discussion with Wiltshire, and others who were inclined to support other aspects of her point - but she came back in a belligerent tone. There had been posts which said her perspective was racist, and others which saidd 'hang on a min, lets hear more' or 'not necessarily....'. She had had a balanced reception.

It isn't all chatter and theory out there in the big wide world - she was talking about my loved family. I would liked her to have stayed and engaged in a real discussion. She didn't.

I feel that free speech should reign on mumsnet - you never know it may do some good, someone who holds for eg a racist or homophobic view may have their eyes opened by the responses of others, or at least it will get them thinking about the fact that not everyone holds similar views etc.

I don't feel that wiltshire was being bullied, she holds (for mumsnet) a VERY minority view and of course lots of people are going to disagree with her (deliberately inflammatory) statement.

I mean, if I came on here saying I agreed with Osama bin Laden on everything, I'm sure I wouldn't get welcomed very enthusiastically either. If you are stirring you have to be able to take the consequences.

Well said, Blu

no-one was bullying wiltshire, i have just reviewed that thread. One person suggested she may be a troll (not an unreasonable idea), and when at the end of a rant, wiltshire asks, "am I a racist?", someone says, "yes you are"- again, not unreasonable. It is wiltshire who says, "you are a fuckwit", and starts on Lou when she tries to calm her down! Scummy did bait wiltshire a bit, but did apologise, and quite frankly it was no worse than the abuse that wiltshire hurled at Mumsnetters collectively and individually.

and I have no idea who carole caplin is and why I should worship her

isn't/ wasn't she the somewhat new-age person who is a friend of Cherie Blair? I think she had a boyfriend who was a convicted fraudster- not a suitable person to be hobnobbing with our "first family"

oops, before I get berated for that, I believe it was the opinion of some sections of the press that she "wasn't a suitable....etc"

Top post Blu. Thanks for that. Wiltshire started the thread with a racist statement, it wasn't bullied or baited out of her. I'm sorry she feels that way, because feeling at odds with the society around you is very upsetting, but I saw nothing in what she posted subsequently that made me think we might help her change her views through reasoned debate.