*****Moondog*********

[Jimjams2]

Whilst dealing with the hell that is dinner time in this house I came up with the perfect business for you (honestly I should make a career in thinking up businesses I keep winning blumming business competitions- now need to put one of them into practice).

I am not being completely altruistic I would need your services.

Do you want to know more????

Hmmm,I dread to think what it would entail.

Beating children with a large stick while forcing them to eat lentils then kicking a television to smithereens.....?

Am intrigued.

Tell me more.

(Would it fit in with my putative career change to ABA consultant then?)

Some of the more nosy mumsnetters would like to know too

Oh yes!!

I was thinking about how hideous dealing with autistic eating habits is. It;s not just dreadful for the child. it's dreadful for the family (poor parents who have to cook extra meals, dreadful role model for other children- in our case ds2 plays up awfully at meal times presumably because ds1 needs so much attention).

If you're stuck in an awful 'will eat fewer than 10 different items of food and none is a fruit or vegetable' as we were for many years there is currently more or less no help out there unless you employ an ABA consultant anyway. I thought you could specialise. In ds1's case it was eventually behavioural techniques that got us out of the awful mess (although its still not pretty he often has to have a 1/4 chocolate button after each mouthful of casserole for example- which is fine, but makes it difficult to look after the other children as well- especially if ds1 is refusing to sit at the kitchen table- which also happens in phases). I would have paid someone for that sort of help, cheaper than running a full time ABA programme Would pay for distance strategies now- you can do loads by video etc Although we've sorted out the primary problem (not eatiny furit, veg, meat or fish) we've now got lots of other problems. Sitting at the table, feeding himself, fading reinforcers etc.

Apprently over 60% of children with autism have some sort of eating related problem (foood restriction usually) so decent sized market available. I'd be willing to get involved if you wanted someone in the background (take care of the website etc).

Oh you could also provide lots of recipes in the website for dishes that contaiin hidden foods. I have a few I could contribute

OK now I've sorted your life out for you, I'm off to sort out mine

JJ you could go into business thinking of business ideas for other people and charging a percentage/commission!

I know! (although I did do quite well winnings wise out of my last idea). May well set that one up.

Hmm,you know what,that sounds like a damned interesting proposition!

As you know I am pretty passionate about food.
('Never!' I hear you gasp.)

I alsoneed a research project for my MSc.

I don't need to think about it just yet but will do so in next 12 months.

I'm going to have a word with my supervisor about research in this area on Wednesday.

I will seriously bear it in mind.

Thanks!

NEVER!!!

I did eat two sausages yesterday though.

Supermarket ones too.

Although,reflecting on this,do you really think there would be sufficient interest?

I acknowledge totallt that the diet of many children with Autism is horrifying but can completely understand that for many families,in the grand scheme of things,what does it matter that lillte Johnny lives on Pop Tarts,Maltesers and chicken nuggets.

Of far greater concern are things like ensuring he doesn't run into the road and get knocked down or electrocute himself fiddling with the lights.

Do people have any energy left when it comes to diet?

What do you reckon?

sorry to jump in but I think this is a very interesting idea and yes there are other concerns beyond food, but food is often an issue people want specific guidance on and you could not just focus on autistic eating habits, but offer advice to anyone facing eating problems in their children.

..and because they don't have the energy left when it comes to food is exactly why buying in the advice of a professional would be so welcoming.

moondog- are you serious? Is there really a need??? Honestly have a read of Can't Eat Won't Eat published by Jessica Kingsley to get an idea of the scale of the problem. Often its not about eating some crappy chicken vaginas its about ONLY eating something like chocolate buttons. Have a look at Charlotte Moore as well - a sensible, very together mum with a son who would only eat parma violets for days on end. Honestly ds1 didn't eat meat, veg or fruit for 4 years and whilst you accept that it's hard to feel like you wouldn't do anything about it given the chance. Plus even now I would like to start gettiing supplements into him, but very very hard.

The first thing you would need is to teach parents reinforcement. My problems for a lot of the time was that until I started doing ABA myself I didn't really understand reinforcement, and how it worked.

I could be the person who fielded the initial calls so you could avoid hyperventilating at some of the diets

Seriously it is a massive problem, and as I have found fixable. If you had told me a year ago that ds1 would have been eating casseroles I wouldn't have believed you. But it did take a year to get there and for that parents need someone supervising I think otherwise it becomes too difficult.

Would be quite easy to do via video etc as well. Draw up an programme.

Can't Eat Won't Eat is a great book for really stating the scale of the problem.

Honest to god if you asked me the best thing that someone has done for ds1 it was his first teacher at special school who took the time - a whole year of his time- to sort out his eating. HIs diet still isn't fantastic, and as I said earlier he's still being spoon fed etc a lot of the time- all stuff I would like to sort out, but the difference now that he's eating he's put on some weight and looks healthier. Yes the being run over thing is a worry, but that's only a worry for the time you're outside the house. Once you're in and the doors are locked its gone. If you know your child isn't eating and veg or any fruit or any meat or fish, that's always churning away. Sure you do things like tell youself that crisps are vegetables (Charlotte Moore I was pleased to read did similar things), but you do know all the time that that's not really true.

The joy of being able to put on the slow cooker in the moring and feed all 3 boys the same food (dare I say it, organic) is a big difference from having no choice. And now he eats chips and McD's burgers we can actually go out for the day. Also now he can eat that we can start to practice eating in public (he never used to eat anything at all outside the house- one reason we could never go away except in campervans- he would eat in them)

I know I am officially 'not posting'

But have to post on this.

There are also NT kids who could use this......my ds would have been one of them. He had a very, very resitricted diet. In the end it 'came round'... a bit, but still made family eating a PITA. I know it isn't the same thing at all, but I could have done with some help

I think the 'draw up a program' thing would be key. Something noddy that we could follow.....and Anabelle Karmel (I know, I know ) for eating problems, if you will.

Yes your thread re the beans on crisps and so on was fascinating.
I've read Charlotte Moore,but not Can't Eat Won't Eat.Will check it out.

i can believe what you say about eating the same thing making a massive difference.

I think it is so divisive if a family (any family) is constantly eating different stuff at different times.Food is so much more than just food hence my constant rantings.

I think a dietician would have to come on board to give it serious weight perhaps?

I know that eating healthily is not rocket science but people would probably want reassurance don't you think?

Very very interesting.Off to Step now.Shall think some more as I try to keep up.

{grin]

Do you know, I could have sworn I saw MB just now.

Hope they are all well. Shame I missed her, I could have told her that her wonderful heathen was mentioned loosely from the altar yesterday. I kept it fairly vague, I am not sure that they would have believed me if I had asked them to pray for Mr Martian Bishop. No, No Deacon, Martian Bishop not Madge Bishop.

Dietician -yes - BUT autism savvy please- otherwise there's no point - some of the clients will be very into biomed stuff and any dietician needs to be up to scratch with all of that.

MB- that's interesting. DS2 is a bit like your DS in terms of itchy/scratchy/hypersesitive things and although I think 90% of what he does at mealtimes is playing up, he does have some sensory stuff on top that adds to it all. I must remember to be kinder to him. Also he doens't bloody chew his food properly- that must fall into your territory MD as well.....

MD you could have different levels- distance stuff for easy to crack. Even standard downloadable tips for basic types of things, right up to video support, perhaps even home visits as the children get older, for the chocolate button/parma violets/only eat white foods children out there.

jj - can I ask a general question: would you think reinforcements from the multimedia / electric domain would work as effectively as your 1/4 choc buttons ?

I don't have knowledge of the nuances relating to the reinforcement programs, but I was just wondering if anything like a TV program / some kind of game could be used which would deliver an 'electric' reinforcer (ie 10 seconds of cartoon or a music jingle etc.) could be used IYSWIM. This could be controlled by the parent or child.

Just thinking out loud.

What a great idea - let me know when it's set up - my family will be your guinea pigs

Depends on the child. If I wanted ds1 too wokr through a coomputer program then regular reinforcement from that would be great (saw a great home made one on powerpoint), the reinforcement for a correct answer was video clips of his dad or mum saying some phrase he liked.

IN terms of reinforcement for eating - harder to use, the reinforcement needs to be immediate, and also will need to be very strong (will depend on the child- each child will have a different set). IN ds1's case the strongest reinforcers we have at the moment are buttons and whizzers. Anything else isn's strong enough for him to take a mouthful of casserole.

yes, ds was a 'messer rounder' as well, but he did (and still does) have issues with textures, mixes of foods....so he would eat meat and some veg, but no gravy, would eat mashed potatoes, but not roast. With time things did improve (and I realise that this is the essential difference between NT and ASD), but for a good 4 years we couldn't all eat the same stuff which was a PITA. Goodness knows what it must be like with 'real' problems

There would be a real opening for a noddy guide to sorting this stuff out for the 'easier' end of the problem. I'd have bought a book like a shot. It was never enough to be a health issue, just a family one IYSWIM

oh ds2 drives me mad fussing about potatoes. DS3 calls them eggs