what's so bad about being a Tory?

[hatwoman]

let's be clear. I'm a leftie. But I'm also a liberal. and I'm actually quite shocked by the number of people who've put being a Tory/voting Tory on their list of ways their dcs could rebel. I think there are some awful Tories. But I also think there are some awful lefties. I think there are Tories who have very different values and desires for our society to mine. But I also think there are Tories who have very similar values and desires for our society - (some are perhaps a bit misguided about how to implement them) - and similarly there are lefties who have different values to me. I also think that certain political labels are so fluid as to be misleading at best (eg Tory and Labour - as opposed to conservative and lefty) and that declaring a party as party non-grata (along the I could never vote Tory and I would hate it if my child did lines) is naive and dogmatic. I could never vote for a party that was racist and I will always choose not to vote for a party if I don't believe their social/educational/economic policy will be good for our country and the wider world. But I will never say I will never vote for a particular party. I know the thread about dcs and rebelling is meant to be light-hearted but are people really quite so dogmatic about their politics?

The level of blind prejudice on this thread is unbelievable. And to think that the majority of MNers are (allegedly) university educated. So at least one or two of you with an education that should allow you to sift fact from fiction have been repeating labour party rhetoric without actually looking at the realities.

From now on no more political threads for me, and if you see me on one please remind me and tell me to go away (nicely).

I think the difference is Gobbledispook, is that while individuals may make individual choices for their families because they live in the world as it is rather than the world as they would like it to be, they still want to change the world so that they don't have to make those choices.

It's the difference between saying "OK I'm lucky I've got a choice, but I want to make it so that everyone gets the same opportunity to choose as I do and I'll vote for the party which will enable that" or saying "I've got a choice and I'm going to vote for the party that enables me personally to pursue my choice and I don't care whether others have a choice or not."

"those of you who like the conservatives because of low taxes - how do you think that doesn't just help the individual?"

this misses the point of my op: Find me a conservative who says that low taxes are about individuals. The point is - they would argue - that low taxes are good for everyone - increasing productivity, encouraging business blah blah blah. Now my problem with the voting Tory is hideous argument (and the reason behind my op) is that - perhaps naively - I see the majority of Tories - those who make the low tax is good for us all argument - as misguided. not horrible people who care not for other people/wider society. some might fall into the latter category but I prefer to give most the benefit of the doubt. Those that I know - who, admittedly are educated, thinking Tories, certainly fall into the misguided, as opposed to putting themselves first at the expense of others, category. hence I view Tories as people worth engaging, not the devils' spawn.

"Gobbledispook we don't all choose to put our children first and society second"

I must admit I read and re-read that a few times, because I couldn't quite believe that I had understood correctly in the first place.

You mean, some people put society first and their children second? I really find that.... unpalatable (quite measured there wasn't I..at least compared to my private unspoken thoughts!)

Nothing is more important to me than my immediate family - and certainly not some abstract political ideology.

I do care about the greater good and society..but with disharming honesty (and I don't believe anyone who says otherwise) it's a secondary consideration.

toyed with the idea of voting tory at last election - so they could fuck things up for poor people and keep us community workers in a job for a few more years.

i agree with maggiesmums morality view point.

plus triteness aside, tories traditionally treat middleclasses quite well whilst pretending to "reform" by bullying poor minorities and withdrawing services

rather like waht new labour is doing now!

I agree that conservatives have traditionally tried to protect the 'elite'

hmc - whilst my op was not about left v right or Labour v Tory (it was about dogmatism) I have to respond to this: "You mean, some people put society first and their children second? I really find that.... unpalatable" For me the point is that they are not two seperate things. I put neither first nor second. I believe the welfare of my children is inextricably tied to the kind of society we live in and vice versa. My children are not islands and I believe their happiness is fully tied to society being happy with itself. I - personally - find anything else - unpalatable.

Well put Hatwoman

which leads me to an answer to my OP....those who will never vote Tory, who find it a betrayal of their values, think that me and my family first, society second is an integral part of Tory-ism. I am not convinced, in all cases, that it is. However, I would find my child thinking "me first, society second" as a rebellion. Just not sure that voting Tory is always a manifestation of this.

Message withdrawn

hatwoman - your latter post (11.41) makes perfect sense to me, and I don't disagree.

However, not sure that this is what Twinset was saying (and I was responding to her comment mostly...)

I see what you mean hmc - I guess twinset's post points to the fact that none of this is cut and dry! if you hold that concern for our own children and concern for wider society are closely linked, it doesn;t follow that every decision you make is going to be an easy one. rather every decision is going to involve a lot of weighing up.

"Why should I work hard and pay taxes so that others can sit around on the dole"

I wouldn't deny that a Conservative would have made that statement but are you seriously trying to tell me that a socialist hasn't?!

Come on now!

Poll tax, clause 28, decimating student grants and housing benefit for students, miners strikes, telling unemployed people to get on their bikes, pro hunting, making speeches about all teachers being communist brainwashers...

A cumulation of things all to do with the 80s. Thing is that politics changes all the time and our children, if they do vote Tory, will be voting for a different sort of tory party from the 80s one I despised. Just as people voted for a different sort of Labour in '97.

Anyway, I was not saying there was anything wrong with going to a private school. DH, my mum, his mum were privately educated.

But I do find it strange that the Tory party have recruited 60% of their MPs from the ranks of the 8% of the population that went to public schools, and therefore I suspect them to be a Masonic-type institution which is immune to outside influence. That's all.

They do need more diversity in their midst to form a viable government.

Forgot to mention that this was addressed to Gobbledispook's comment.

Doesn't really matter who you vote for, they all get it backwards anyway.