School library thumbprint identification. Your opinions.

[2ManyPimms]

DS's school has just installed a new computer system to track incoming and outgoing books. In order to borrow a book, the child's thumbprint would be scanned for identification purposes. The school has explained that the thumbprint itself is not stored, only a numerical representation of the thumbprint (which is not reconstructable).

Discussed this with DH over dinner the other night and both of us are uncomfortable with the whole process. What bothers me in particular is that children are being "conditioned" into thinking that capturing biometric identification is commonplace and therefore no big deal. IMO our DNA, fingerprints and other highly individual information is the last bastion of personal liberty.

This afternoon I must present myself to the headmistress and justify my decision not to allow DS borrow books in this way. What angers me is that I cannot simply say "no", I have to get the lecture from the head on the benefits of the system before she allows DS's name to be attached to a barcode instead.

So....do you think thumbprint identification is no big deal or are you uncomfortable with the concept?

Why can't they just have a library card??

How strange! How old is your ds?

DS is 6.

I too was wondering why they couldn't have a library card. Perhaps they think that the little ones would end up losing them on a regular basis.

there is no way in the world that i would allow ds to take part in this sort of scheme.

first because although they are saying that the thumbprint is not reconstructable they will have to take a print in the first place and therefore there is a risk that the initial data will not be destroyed (we know that the police have kept fingerprint data even where there has been a specific order of the court for it to be destroyed).

secondly for the reason you give.

thirdly because it is so outrageously disproportionate a method of tracking children's library books that i would have thought you were joking if the tone of your post were not so serious.

I have to say, I'm in the "no big deal" category. And I'm in the anti-ID card camp, so I ought to be right behind you. I just can't get aerated over a library computer system.

I second what lummox said

Don't know how this particular system works, but they don't necessarily have to take a physical thumbprint in the first place -- that can just be a scan directly into the numeric representation without ever having existed as a "real" thumbprint.

It makes me feel a bit uncomfortable - also, if at the end of the day the thumbprint is used to generate a number and the thumbprint is not stored - why not just give them all numbers (barcodes??)
Cynical me thinks they have got hold of a fancy bit of software and want to make use of it!

I'd be uncomfortable too, but I'm not sure whether I'd be sufficiently bothered to complain.

One silly question occurs to me. What happens in the (not infrequent) event of a minor thumb injury? Can you not borrow a book if wearing a plaster?

The issues you mention don't bother me at all.

However thumbprint scanners are incredibly popular with children. In our primary school children are ecstatic when they get promoted to the KS3 library, and installed in the scanner. I am sure many of them just get books out in order to use the scanner. It's very exciting when you're 7 or 8. It sounds ridiculous, but it really does encourage children to read.

And has the added advantages that you can't forget it (a number or a password), and you can't lose it (a card of whatever.)

I've worked in a library and seen the amount of faff that goes on in producing cards, attaching barcodes, people losing cards, creating new cards with new barcodes, copying those in, then people finding their old cards again and wanting to borrow on those, then people borrowing on someone else's card and not seeing why that's a problem, then people coming in and complaining because someone else borrowed books on their card and we didn't magically spot it using our profound psychic powers and stop them.

I can entirely see the appeal of having a thumbprint-based system where the only circumstances under which you'd need to worry about any of that is if someone loses a thumb. It means more of the library budget can be spent on books and less on faffing around. But depending on the size of the school and the library it may indeed be overkill.

I spoke with the mum who was in charge of obtaining the library computing package and she said that there wasn't a choice of programme out there. This was it. Apparently the thumbprint identification thing was an optional extra and it was thought that the upper school children would be more inclined to use the library because of the "cool" thumbprint technology.

Lemonaid - Yes, but the idea of biometric data being harvested at such a young age and giving the impression to children that this is "right" is worrying.

Hallgerda -- there will be an override option for staff so that you could issue a book to someone with an injured thumb who had sufficient other evidence of his/her identity. And if a scar caused the thumbprint to change you could rescan it.

In addition...

It is a small library. Not sure how many titles but it is just a wee primary school collection of books. So I could say that it is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

DD1's school uses this system as well (DD1 is in Y1). I'm the kind of person who can work myself into a state of existential angst about most things, but for some reason I couldn't get worked up about this one. I think it's because there is already a massive amount of information stored electronically and on hard copy about DD1 (computer-held records at the GP's surgery; adoption records with Social Services; her application to State and independent schools; her record with the Health Vistor, hell, even her membersip (now lapsed) with TumbleTots). This just seems to be one more piece of information. The fact that it unambiguously and biometrically identifies her, as opposed to identifying her circumstantially (name, address, DoB) doesn't seem such a big deal. It's the information that is attached to the identification (in this case a tendency to take out the same Winnie The Witch book repeatedly) and the way that is secured and shared that matters. I trust the school when it says it will use the information only to track the library books.

Also, as a frequent visitor to the US, I guess I'm just used to it.

BTW DH who doesn't get himself worked up at all, perversely does have a visceral objection to the system, but not enough to do anything about it.

I do see your point, but agree more with roisin -- it's ultimately harmless, and encourages children to read because they think it's cool (have to admit even I think it's kind of cool and would be quite keen to give it a go in an innocuous setting like a library whereas I am not at all happy about the idea in the context of Big Government). And they are letting your DS opt out.

I'm actually much less worried about havesting of biometric data than about the number of organisations who currently feel the need to know my full address, my date of birth, my mother's maiden name and the name of my first pet. It's a lot easier, practically speaking, to indulge in identity theft with those pieces of information than with a numeric representation of my thumbprint.

always a difficult area of debate the id card stuff, as for my part it is very much based on feelings. this means i feel that the other position should have to be justified rather than me explaining what is so wrong about it. i guess if i didn't feel so strongly i really would wonder what all the fuss is about.

but given that a lot of people do feel very strongly would everyone agree that it ought to be the parents' choice, rather than a parent who does feel strongly having to justify themselves to the head?

obviously it will cause some administrative problems (although clearly not insurmountable) but i feel suficiently strongly that it is akin to a religious or philosophocal objection to something.

No biggy to me - but then I don't care about ID cards either I have nothing to hide and IMO it could make the word a safer place if we know who some people are and what they are doing.

There are plenty of library automation systems out there that do not use biometrics to identify borrower records, that is simply not true 2manypimms.
The anecdotal evidence from school libraries is as Roisin says - the scanners are seen as a fun, "Alex Rider" sort of way to borrow your books. The children have zero interest in personal data security issues!
I can understand your concerns but in the context of a primary school library I honestly think they are misplaced. It sounds as though the Head has a fall-back strategy for parents so, grit your teeth, get through the lecture, and hope you never lose that barcoded ticket.
Self-issue and biometrics are in theory supposed to mean more money for books but I suspect that the cash saved won't make it into the resources budget

ahem...sufficiently (maybe I should spend more time in libraries)

If there are other systems available for use, the head of the PTA has missed them. I wonder if there was a "backhander" involved?! (wink)

Instead of ID cards, why doesn't the government just cut to the chase and have us all "chipped" as we do pets? Then they could know our whereabouts 24/7! Shouldn't bother people with "nothing to hide".

I just see this as conditioning children from a very young age and in a benign environment into providing highly individual personal information.

i saw a school on the news the other day, where the students sign in with fingerprint id

I have heard eventually fingerprinting will be used in place of chip and pin

I suspect that fingerprinting will take the place of chip and PIN in the next 10 years.

I agree with 2manypimms. It's the thin end of the wedge FFS.