The sensitive subject thread : the next generation

[welliemum]

I started to post on the sensitive subject thread, then thought it not very appropriate, so have started this one instead, with the idea of thinking about directly practical issues.

I've been chilled to the bone by the stories of rape and abuse on that thread. I have 2 daughters and I'm absolutely determined that they will never ever have to go through anything like that.

I am one of the "lucky ones" and I apologise unreservedly to any of the "unlucky ones" if this seems in any way a clinical analysis of what they went through. Not intended that way at all.

I just feel there must be some way of learning from these horrific experiences to make things better for the next generation.

For example, here are some recurring statements on the thread and my thoughts about how I would talk to my dd's:

1. "I didn't report it because I thought no-one would believe me".
   Maybe we, as parents, and also people in positions of authority like teachers or doctors need to stress explicitly to children that they will always be believed. And not only say this, but show it by taking their word for things in both big and trivial matters.

2. " I didn't report it because I was drunk at the time".
   First of all there is this myth that drunk women are to blame which needs to be knocked on the head asap. But also, I think we need to stress to teenage girls how very vulnerable they are when drunk. It's a difficult point to get across without appearing to blame people who did get drunk. Not sure how to do this.

3. "I didn't really feel I could say no"
   We praise our children when they're polite, respectful and compliant. But this could backfire terribly, allowing the child (or adult) to be controlled by an abuser. I think this is especially a worry for girls. Somehow we have to help children distinguish between reasonable and unreasonable demands.

4. Also, it seems to me that there's a huge problem of denial in families, situations where you think the mother must have been aware of something going on, yet did nothing. I wonder if at least part of this is from mothers finding the thought so horrific that they just block it out. So, that's another thing, to find the strength to face up to the idea of rape or abuse of your child, however awful to comtemplate, so as not to fail your child when they need you so badly to protect them.

Would be interested to hear any other thoughts and ideas. I know this is quite a defensive approach, but I'm thinking at the moment of things I can control (what I say to my daughters) rather than things I can't control (the behaviour of other people 'out there'), if that makes sense.

I had no idea it was so widespread. I'm finding that thread very difficult reading.

I was considering ways of allowing dd (nearly 6) more freedom but reading the thread, I've changed my mind.

It's VERY worrying and I am also thinking about how to best tackle it.

i was never allowed on a sleepover. and we were never allowed friends for a sleepover so we weoulndt have to reciprocate.
even wwhen we ewnt to visit family, we never stayed the night at families house who had boys older than us. this was with mom and dad present.
i used to think mom wsa being so mega anal. now im glaad.

welliemum, I'm another of the "lucky ones" deeply shocked by reading the "sensitive subject" thread, and I think it was a very good idea to start a new thread on practical issues.

I can see what you're getting at in the first point, but I'm not sure one can believe everything children say all of the time as they do sometimes lie. Listening to them and training ourselves in how to pick up real danger signs in what they say would seem a better way to go.

I agree with you over the drunkenness point. How about explaining that if you are drunk you are not able to take care of yourself properly, and that there are bad people in the world who will take advantage of that. Theft is as much of a risk as sexual assault. Nobody would blame a victim of theft who was drunk at the time of the offence - why should victims of rape or sexual assault be treated differently?

I think "saying no" should be part of the school PHSE curriculum (not that I'm absolving parents from the responsibility, more making sure the point is covered with everyone). And I mean that in a broader assertiveness sense, not just over sex and drugs etc. - children should be confident to think for themselves and express an unpopular view. And they should respect the position of those who say no to them. I suspect those of us with boys may encourage assertiveness for fear they'll not survive playground life if they don't toughen up.

Sssandy, I don't think giving your daughter less freedom is the answer to keeping her safe. Encouraging her to be more "streetwise" and responsible for herself could help her avoid a bad situation one day, though five seems quite young to start. What was it that you'd planned to let her do and have now decided against?

stitch, I have to say I think your mom was being mega anal.

Im sorry, but i feel very strongly about the being drunk issue.

Everybody knows that drinking impairs your judgement and reflexes. The drink drive campaign shows that. But, its not as straight forward as being drunk and incapable.

Nor is it as simple as being assertive (if that is really an issue) enough to say "no".

I really believe that people need to start taking the emphasis off the victim's responsibilities and focus on the offenders.

If more emphasis needs to be placed on the being drunk issue, then it needs to be from parents telling their sons(children) that it is NOT okay to "take advantage" of a drunk woman.

The next generation needs to focus on these seemingly "normal" looking and behaving offenders. I really do think that there is something wrong with society that we look to the victims to change the crime rate, and not the police, the law or the offenders. THIS is the crux of the whole issue of feeling able, and worthwhile in reporting a rape/assault/abuse.

I don't mean to upset anyone here, but from my own personal experience, and that of my professional researching experience. - Most young people that are abused or raped have been abused by soemone they know. The idea that a stranger lurking in the bushes that abuses them is not the reality for most. The reason why we as victims are unlikely to tell our families, is because the perpetrator is known and therefore harder to believe they would do such a thing

Absolutely Jazzi.

exactly jazzi

I don't want to go through a whole spiel here but basically when it is someone in the family(and quite often loved, respected and popular) then when you, as a child, try and tell people that something is wrong - and remember, it doesn't always come out the way an adult would expect, so it may be that as a sign you become more withdrawn first, then start doing badly at school, then lie about small things to get attention - by the time you have accused someone of doing something, you may have been written off as a child who was feeling down anyway or one who is a liar.

There is also the situation where other people have been abused in the family but don't want to /can't admit it themselves so having a child say the same thing can be excruciatingly painful and something that people in the family want to remain hidden.

Indeed fox.

I also think that because you know the person, there is an element of wanting to protect them, at the same time as wanting them to leave you the hell alone.

And theres the "I said no - and kept saying no - but he was/is my boyfriend/DH" [asd]

That should have been

yes halgerda, mom was being anal, but im als oo one of the lucky ones
mom understood that the danger was more likely to come from someone we knew. and did her best to protect us. she also succeeded.

VVVQV, I don't know whether your last post was aimed at me, but I can assure you that I have every intention of telling my sons (when they are old enough to understand the concept) that it is not acceptable to take advantage of a drunk woman, and I stamp very firmly on any suggestion that no might under any circumstances really mean yes. And I don't blame victims for crimes committed against them.

But surely it is not unreasonable to teach our children some ways to avoid trouble?

My assertiveness point wasn't just about saying "no", but partly about avoiding being brought into a dangerous situation through peer pressure. And yes, I recognise that it's the offenders who make the dangerous situations, and I do recognise that my sons need to be taught that the offenders' behaviour is absolutely unacceptable.

I know in at least one of the cases posted... they did tell someone... and it got turned against them - after that, why would you tell anyone else?

How do we protect against that?

Its not unreasonable at all Hallgerda.

I just feel that there is far too much focus on the victim/potential vicitim and what they could/should have done.

The problem with this is that for those that have already been abused or attacked - this serves no purpose but to make them feel much worse than they already do.

Teaching children stranger danger and "good touch/bad touch" is very important, undoubtedly. I also think that its worth teaching them, as they get older the perils of drinking (to excess) for a number of very good reasons (health, drink driving etc not just this reason).

However, I hate that the focus falls on the victim (in rape/assualt/abuse cases) - we all know that its not wise to leave your purse poking out the top of your handbag as you wander around the shops, we all know that you should be watchful when using cash machines, we all know that you should lock all windows and doors when you leave the house. But, there are still burglaries, muggings, robberies etc. The crime will still be committed by those motivated to.

What will make a difference, IMO, is to deal with the motivation behind the offenders actions. It is clear that there are very few rapists/assailants or abusers that are consider socio/psychopaths. Therefore, we are talking, largely about seemingly 'everyday' men (occasionally women) who do not know where to draw the line, and what is acceptable and what isnt. Why do some men think its okay to sleep with a drunk woman? Or to get a woman drunk in order to sleep with her? Why do some men think that no doesnt mean no? Why do some men think its their right to 'have sex' with their wife or partner? Why do some men think is their right to 'have sex' with anyone they choose to, irrespective of the persons wishes? Why do adults think its okay to perform sexual acts on children, when they know full well what the laws are?

THOSE are the questions we should be finding answers and solutions for. What makes these children grow up thinking the above?

I agree completely that those are the big questions vvvqv. As the other thread has shown, it's not about a few psychopaths running amok- the whole of society is complicit in allowing this to go on, and that needs to be addressed as the root cause of the problem.

But I think there's room for more than one approach to the problem. For example, the drinking question.

The way I see it, it's a bit like, you can be a very good driver, but you'll still wear a seatbelt. That's because sometimes things happen on the road that you have no control over. Wearing a seatbelt doesn't imply that you're a bad driver, or that you are accepting blame for other bad drivers - it's simply a way of decreasing the risk of getting hurt.

I think I would present it that way to a teenage girl. In a sane society, a 14 year old would be able to go out and get completely paralytic, and nothing worse would happen than a bad headache and a telling off. But this isn't a sane society.

As I said in my post, I do think its important to educate teenagers to the perils of drinking/binge drinking. For a great number of reasons.

I think speaking retrospectively about how drink facilitated a crime implies the victim could have prevented it. I believe that this is very damaging to the victim and damages the cause of making it 'okay' for victims to come forward and report crimes.

A victim already feels responsible for not being able to do more to stop what was happening, I dont think focusing on this will assist in encouraging people to report this type of crime.

I understand where you are coming from, completely. But, I think there is much to be done to dispel a multitude of urban myths about rape and abuse.

It's horrifying to think that talking to children about taking care of themselves might actually make them more vulnerable, ie that if anything happened they would feel it was because they weren't careful enough somehow.

And that's it, isn't it? What makes rape different from any other crime: the victims blame themselves and are blamed by others .

I will also be hopefully teaching my boys about respecting women, but in this day and age, I will also be telling them about saying no. Let's not forget the men can get raped too and I'm sure there are men that also don't want to report it either. Firstly we're tackling the don't talk to strangers as they're 4 1/2 and 3 but we'll move on from there