help please - has anything like this happened in your town/ city?

[Cappucino]

There is at present a plan for a massive new shopping centre with Debenhams, Gap, all kinds of high street wonderment, to be built next to the town centre. It would increase the retail area of the town by about a half again.

We have quite a medium sized town centre with a mix of high street and independent shops, all quite small sized

I wondered if anyone had any experience of new shopping centres/ developments being built in their town or city and could tell me their experience ie whether it was a big boost to the town or whether it just shifted the focus of the town centre to another area at the expense of the existing centre

There is a campaign to oppose it but I don't want to jump in with a kneejerk reaction if this is something that will be a Good Thing

anyone?

Can't think it could be a 'Good Thing'. Once little independant shops have been foced out by numb chain stores, they will not come back. In our town they demolished the old indoor market with its plethora of small, interesting, random (and cheap!) shops and replaced wit with a big mall. They promised to replace the market - it never happened. Now the onlyplace to buy fresh fish/cds/clothes pegs/petfood whatever etc is the supermarket. A few independant retails open shops in the mall - they usually last a year before they fail as the rates are sooooo high.
Also, unless adequate parking is provided, if people are attracted to your town becuse of the shops, they won't return if there is nowhere to park. In our town, they removed all free on-street parking, so you now have to pay 50p to even pop into the libary to return a book.

I love your shopping centre Jampots!

I work in Dudley, which the Council are trying to revive, as it has been killed off by Merry Hill. Bit of a lost cause, I suspect.

fullmoonfiend - your experience sounds just like our town. Our residents assoc. are fighting a rearguard action to stop the council turning our area (just outside the town centre) that was once full of brilliant independent retailers into a street of 'high-density' housing - ie bedsits. The rents and rates go higher and higher and the parking gets worse 'cos of all the new residents with no off-street parking so that when shop owners retire (most of them had been there for years) there is no way they can sell the businesses on as a going concern. It all stinks . It sometimes feels that planning depts see retailing as ONLY happening in big new malls.

Cappucino, where do you live? Is it the same place beginning with "C" that the council keeps moving things /digging things up, against the wishes of locals and is knocking half the town down to have a next and H&M as part of it???

no Charlene it's not; dunno where that is

In Cheshire

quotes from the current government advice to councils on dealing with applications for new shops

'it is not the role of the planning system to restrict competition, preserve existing commercial interests or to prevent innovation' - ie can't refuse permission for one shop (or mall) just because it would put another shop in the same centre out of business...

'local planning authorities should actively promote growth' - and much of the boom in the current economic climate is because we are all spend spend spending!

where there is an identified need for growth, local authorities select an appropriate (town) centre to accommodate that growth - retail consultants (ie private sector!) will do a study for a council identifying what, if any, level of growth needs to be catered for - this should then be directed towards a suitable town centre (and not a meadowhall/merry hill type location...)

OTOH advice also talks about enhancing consumer choice, which could be translated as making sure you have the independent shops AS WELL AS the multiples - but I suspect very few Council's would try swim against the tide of 'growth is good'...

Sorry, busman's holiday here, will shut up! Good luck with your campaign...

Cappucino is it LGC?? We have a similar plan atm. Personally I think regeneration is needed here. I don't want to loose the independents but with Hitchin, Stevenage and even Luton on the doorstep no-one is really coming to our town anyway so the independents are still closing. Things have improved over the last few years with the arrival of a couple of the high street shops and a few coffee shops - so that people can linger in the town rather than come in, stop for a few mins, then leave. However as much as it's nice to have a town filled with independents they tend to be either higher priced or selling 'gift' type items that people do not buy regularly enough to generate a healthy income and stability to produce a thriving town. When Morrison's came to the town it was claimed that they killed the town centre too, but I'd say that yes unfortunately the grocer's 'died' but many other shops have benefited from people coming into the town to visit Morrison's rather than just going to Sainsbury's on the retail park outside the town.

Aside from this as someone else said earlier, what hasn't helped recently is the increase in car park fees - up by 100% for a 3 hour period - but if the council want to encourage shoppers and visitors this is not the way to start.

Unfortunately it's a fact for the modern town centre that people want high street stores, and cheap prices - who doesn't? Afterall who amongst us hasn't chosen to take advantage of the bogof offer at the supermarket even though we know it's the manufacturer not the supermarket taking the financial burden of this, or gone for the bigger cheaper supermarket veg/fruit even though very often the farmer is making virtually no money on these, rather than go to the independent grocer??

It's a nice idea to say bugger off to the high street stores and huge shopping centres, but very few town centres would be viable without them, and to say an outright no to them just sends most people to somewhere that does have them.

Know where you're talking about, Charlene.

Rhymes with Loo.

Actually I think what capp describes is different to the Sheffield/Meadowhall scenario. They are seperate places so it is one or the other. I think it is more like when they built the Kingsgate centre in Huddersfield. And yes on the rare occasions when I go into Huddersfield I use both shops in and out of the centre.

I agree with Bozza, where they are really close to the open shopping streets it can work well. Eastleigh in Hampshire has benefited hugely from its big shopping mall as it opens on to both the main shopping streets which are parallel so you can walk a loop of the whole town. You also have to walk down them to reach the bus station, park, banks and free carparks so people don't just stay 'indoors' there.

babyonboard/fio - that is what I said! That Sheffield was destroyed when Meadowhall was built. I am sure that is what I wrote!

However, it is now much much better. We spend a lot of time int he city now. We lived in the city centre until last September. The chances happening are immense and are continuing. The Peace Gardens. Winter Gardens, Devonshire Street and currently the main centre have all made huge chamges all for the better. Coles is about to go under the hammer too and have a hge refurb. More shops are moving back in. I love shopping in the city now, epecially down West Street and Devsonshire Street. The Moor and the market area still need improving. But it gets better every year and is looking better and better. I do to Meadowhall when I have to!

We also go in a lot of Sundays. More shops are open now than previously. Many don't open until 11 though. But most fo the big shops are open. Again I don't stray from the centre down to West Street area though. The rest may well be very different. I like the smaller independent shops, and Coles Wish we had a Monsson though.

The thing about Sheffield is that the turn around in the city centre came about as a result of the decline of industry in the city, so as the Steel works closed space became available for redevelopment ,attracting more investment and regeneration. Similar is true of Manchester post the IRA attack, but had this not happened the Trafford centre could have had a similar impact on the city centre as Meadowhall.

Very true - part of the decline was also the decline of the Steel industries. I didn't live there then, but in a nearby town. The steel industries closing down really did a lot of damage to Sheffield and surrounding areas, not just Meadowhall.

Southampton got West Quay (bloody maaarvellous place) - and for 3-5 years the old city centre was in decline, but has now recovered. There are perhaps more coffee places, wine bars etc in the old city centre than formerly (rather than retail outlets), and slightly further afield shops have become more 'specialist'

I think it depends on how similar the new place will be to what is there now. In Portsmouth you've got the main city centre which has your usual, Woolworths, Topshop, Debenhams etc. Southsea which has a small bit with the usual shops, plus a lot of independent shops about. And Gunwharf Quays which opened about 5yrs ago. It's an 'outlet' type place and has stores like Gap, Elle, LKB, Ted Baker etc. Here the 3 main shopping places are so diverse that I haven't noticed that one detracts from the other. But if the new centre is going to be very similar to what is existing where you live, then it will probablt have a significant effect on it.

Can be a good thing. Our local town was redone about 10 years ago. Big hoo haa about poor little shops, bad design etc. Has saved the town with safer pedestrianised area, more shoppers using all of the shops - prob saved some of those who moaned it would reduce traffic. Same thing happened when Tesco built a new store in the town. Everyone pannicked and said poor little co-op, poor little somerfield. They are both still there doing well and Tesco (as much as I hate big chain supermarket ideology) is a life safer with longer opening hours.
Equally, a smaller town the opposite direction to us turned down a shopping redevelopment plan about 5 years ago (just before we moved here) and what a mistake. It is still full of crumbling cheapy shops, a dirty cafe, bookies, launderette, several of those shops full of cheap tupperware and nasty 70s style birthday cards and plastic flowers. It is dreadful and is turning into a ghost town thanks to not moving with the times and avoiding all development..

Be careful not to oppose change for change sake. It could be a disaster but equally could bring new jobs, better quality shops and nicer environment if done well.

LemonTart that's exactly what I think will happen to LGC. It's an old Quaker town and the Heritage Foundation that runs it has for years turned away the larger High Street conglomerates, however the town has a disproportionate amount of charity shops, and lots of cheaper 'granny' shops that cannot hope to entice anyone under 60. A few years ago they started to allow a few coffee bars along with limited High Street stores and there's definitely been a marked increase in Town shopping activity - now they need to take advantage of the momentum and bring in more. Cappucino whether the place you're talking about is LGC or not, I for one do hope the plans they're floating now will come off, because without it I fear the Town will become like the one LemonTart describes

my centre isn't any of the ones you've mentioned

and it's already pretty good; it has all the main high street stores as well as a good mix of independent ones. At present I think it's a great centre; not huge, but then the place isn't huge big city either

I'm all up for the high street stores and yes, I would like a Debenhams - but to increase the retail area by so much - you're looking at about 40-60%, depending on whose figures you use - will be dangerous for the existing town centre.

I can see the high street names all wanting to shift a little closer, and eventually everything moving over to one area.. leaving the little shops behind on their own

Orlando - yep, v. appropriate!