Can it ever be justifiable to want to exclude other children for the sake of your own

[anonaymouse]

A friend of mine fosters and currently has 2 little girls (supposedly short-term but its been over a year) with the worst kind of history you can imagine.

I hear stories of their inappropriate behaviour (from this abusive past) and how it impacts on others. Friend is keen for children to be placed in long-term appropriate family care.

I do not want my small children made aware of certain behaviours which are understandably present in these little girls but still not right

I feel uncomfortable at the thought of them running round my house with my children and cannot relax when we see them (partly because of some of the descriptions of their behaviour that friend has given)

I know this is totally unfair. They are not at fault. They have been appallingly treated BUT it can and might impact negatively on my children and want to protect them from this which I am totally able to do at present

I know rather than react like this I should embrace the challenge and try to help but I simply do not have the energy

what do you think?

anonaymouse, your opening post says only that you want to avoid your kids having contact with these fostered girls purely based on what you have heard of their behaviour in the past. I can't see that you have actually had a playdate where your kids have been or you have been concerned about anything for which you need advice.

Personally, I feel you are being a tad unfair by judging based on hearsay. Do you not have faith in your friend's ability to deal with inappropriate behaviour? Or indeed your own parenting ability in that you can closely supervise the play, say at the park for instance to limit the possibility of anything occurring.

Dare I suggest that even if you did get together for a play date, you might read something into bad behaviour that wasn't there purely because of your knowledge of their past? Another reason why your friend was wrong to be indiscreet.

Agree with QE.

The friend I mentioned earlier has adopted (not fostered children). Their past is their past, and I know nothing more than they were abused (and I wouldn't dream to ask more). In talking generally, rather than specifically, about abuse, I know that you do not put children in the position where they may do something inappropriate. It's only supervision that is needed, nothing more. You don't need a degree in social work, just supervision for however long you spend together. So they play downstairs, not upstairs. I can understand why you wouldn't want to look after them alone, but i can't see what damage they could do if you're all sat in the same room.

Where has the OP gone anyway?

I think it very much depends on how you see your family. As a lone nuclear family unit or as a part of a bigger community.

These girls have had an awful start to life, and they need now to have the opportunity to socialise and learn what is appropriate and non-appropriate behaviour in their social group. They will not get that opportunity if they are shunned by their communities.

I think appropriately supervised then yes, you can let these girls play with your children. As time goes on then perhaps you can lessen the degree of supervision if things are going well.

I would sit down with your friend and have a very open discussion about how you feel, and what does she think are the main risks to letting them mix with your DDs. Then be guided by what she thinks is appropriate at this stage.

If the girls are in school, and reasonably settled at home now, you may very well find that their past is becoming just that 'the past'!

QE and FM thank you for your thoughts - thinking about it I have to agree I shouldn't know some of the details I know, but they did come about naturally rather than maliciouly. They have coloured my thought-processes too . I do think she is finding it very difficult and I am not surprised - they are like a stealth placement (she was begged to take them short term and still has them and they are incredibly challenging)

These children are not friends of my kids as mine are much younger so there is no reason for me to 'force' a relationship over and above the playing across the garden fence relationship they have. Its just with the summer holidays I can see it will be complicated with child supervision which is not how my children are used to playing as I encourage them to use their imaginations and play anywhere in the house or garden.

I think the whole 'lone nuclear family against bigger community' is far far easier to talk about in theory rather than do in practice when your own pre-schoolers are being put at risk. And unfortunately their past is not their past, they have been forced into behaviour patterns since birth that they see as natural which you or I would find abhorrent (whilst recognising the innocence behind it). They are only recently receiving any psychiatric help.

I am not happy with my conclusion that I do not want my children to be forced into playdates with these children for the sake of my relationship with their foster parent. I feel guilty and sick at that conclusion. But I'm sorry but even under 'close supervision' words and actions cannot be totally halted. I do not want my children's lives sanitised and they do have playdates with children who do have other and significant special needs and are very understanding - unfortunately this is a step too far for me.

I suppose I shall have to live with the guilt.

anonyamouse, I think you have had some really insighful advice from QE and Fattiemumma. As you say, I don't think your friend should not have confided in you so much about the history of these girls.

You say they are at school? Is this a special school or not? If they are mixing all day at school with 'normal' children, getting the normal level of supervision, then you could take this into account. If they are already out in the wider community mixing with normal children at school then lots of children have already played with them under supervision with presumably no bad or lasting effects.

If you do not know the school arrangements, can your friend tell you? Is she allowed to tell you how they have got on with other children at school and if there have been any problems? If they have settled well into school and there have been no complaints, then I'd say you should reconsider letting them play with your children in the holidays.

they are at mainstream school and there are huge difficulties

I think when it is a theoretical issue it is very easy to be far more liberal and understanding with your viewpoint. If you put YOUR kids in the picture I think you have to think it through differently - which are not necessarily modes of thought I am or ever have been comfortable with

If there are huge difficulties with them mixing with children at mainstream school, are you sure your friend will expect them to mix with your children during the holidays? Sorry if I have missed something, but could you be making assumptions. Has your friend talked to you about school holiday meet up plans?

Any possibility that your friend has made other plans for them during the holidays as is getting extra support for them as they have been so challenging at school?

I think if they have suffered huge problems at school with other children, this will throw a different light on things for you. I sounds like your friend might need more professional support than she is getting.

I agree with tigermoth. Following on from her point, are your friend's foster children at the same school as yours? If so, they may be playing together there. Surely it would be better in that case if you invited them round, ensured they were adequately supervised and saw what was going on for yourself?

And how many other children at your children's school may have similar (or different but equally worrying) problems that you just don't know about? Perhaps there is something to be said for preparing your children at home for situations that may arise when you are not around?

Having said all that, I'm not sure I'd be up for the challenge every week...

anon you are obviously very uncomfortable with this situation, as I would be too. I would say just do what you have to do in the best interests of your children. There are some issues that lay people are just not qualified to deal with. I come across very simple issues with other peoples' kids that I don't know how to approach eg naughty kids, or fighting etc.

I feel terribly sorry for the abused children but as you say they are not exactly friends with your kids and are in a different age range so the relationship also might be less balanced - ie your children are more likely to be influenced by them. If yours were the same age or a bit older I would see some advantage in meeting up for the neighbor's kids as they might learn more "normal" behaviour.

annonaymouse, over the guilt point, you could reasonably take the position that you only have playdates with children that your own children want to play with. I presume your friend's foster children would not come into that category.

saadia - are you really saying you have no experience of your own children fighting or being naughty?

no no no Hallgerda, what I meant was is that I'm not sure how far I should go in disciplining other peoples' kids.

I do have aquaintances with children who have said in the past that they get very angry when other people discipline their children. Sometimes other peoples' methods are completely ineffective and I really feel they should take a stronger line, particularly if my dss are getting hit and pushed around. Although my dss fight among themselves they never hit other kids.

I also know children with challenging behaviour - for example children who are very unresponsive and ignore you when you talk to them. I don't know whether I should just not bother, or force them to respond.

Well if you don't want to supervise them then no you can't see them really. (I don't think that supervising your children for an hour a week or only meeting in a place like a park will stifle their creativity that much tbh).If they're not the same age, and there's no reason for them to play together then I don't really see what the problem is though, surely it won't come up? I don;t think you should go out of your way to explain that you won't be letting your children mix with them, that would be rather unecessary, (my friend with adopted dd's had someone do just that and she was very upset by it) just avoid them.

Unforunately waiting lists for psychological help are very long, and services are in very short supply.

saadia, I'm glad you clarified that . I take the line that any visitor that does not respond to being spoken to in a direct, forthright and slightly scary manner will be told he (or sometimes she) won't be invited again. And I keep any first visits short to limit the damage. I have to say I've had far more problems with parents than with children.

anonymouse, I agree with jimjams and Hallgerda - as these girls are both sevearal years older than your children, that in itself is a reason not to have playdates and keep things to chatting over the garden fence. IME, it's not usual for two parents to bring children together for playdates unless there is some overlap in age or interests.

Do you feel guilty that your friend will be without your company and support as she is finding this placement so difficult? Can you suggest you meet up with her away from all children one evening?

If, during the next few weeks, you risk the odd 20 minute hour visit (just before you take your two out, for instance, so there is a definite deadline) closely supervising the children shouldn't be that daunting and it will give you an idea if everyone can cope with a longer playdate.

I suppose really no child is at fault for their own bad, inappropriate or whatever behaviour - but we still avoid other children who we fear might make our kids unhappy or damage them in some way. You're not obliged to expose your kids to this for the sake of what would be best for the girls in question. Imagine you ere avoiding some out of control 5-year-old who hit, bit and scratched your kids, or who you had heard behaved that way - well it wouldn't really be the 5-year-old's fault either, but you'd probably stiil avoid them. It's totally understandable.

thank you snowleopard - you post makes me feel less guilty

I'm sorry, do you think that all children who have been abused are a threat to your own children?

I am deeply horrified at your friend for telling you the details of these childrens past, I have a friend who fosters (and has adopted 3 girls also) and she would never in a million years disclose any information on the children in her charge, for the very reason that it may cloud others judgement of the children. The poor children need to become involved with normal, ordinary people in order to unlearn the stuff that they were learned and that they think/thought is perfectly ok. I feel sorry for them actually.

I feel sorry for them too, but this is not about anonymouse judging them, it's about her fears for her own young children being exposed to unpleasant things. Which is reasonable I think. OK she's not putting these girls' needs first, but why should she have to?

I have a friend who was raised with a very disturbed foster brother and he raped her at a young age (they were both quite young). BTW that doesn't affect my opinions on this thread, I've only just remembered about it. But would you say that's OK because the boy needed to be alongside "normal" people? Maybe he did, but nonetheless parents still have the right to try to protect their own kids from damaging influences.

Actually I also feel sorry for non-fostered children in fostering situations because they don't ask for this damage and disturbance to be brought close to them. Yes we all have responsibility as a community to welcome and help to heal the damaged - but that has to balanced against protecting as-yet-undamaged children.

charlottesweb - thanks for your input - but I truly think you are missing the point in this thread. Yes I feel horrifically sorry for these girls, of course I do - I feel sickened and disgusted at the perpertrator and society which has allowed it to go on.

I am awed by my friend's ability to do this kind of job: by her patience and fortitude; by her unselfishness; by her stamina.

What you're saying is if this was you you would encourage them to spend time with your children because it might help them? You believe your children (although younger) would normalise them without being subjected to any of their acting out which can actually be obscenely graphic unfortunately. Forgive me for being dubious. I am possibly just a bad person

I am pleased there are people in the world who can say hand on heart that they feel able to do this, truly I am.

I simply can't. I simply won't.

this entire situation has been bought about by your freinds disclosure of information she was not at libertt to discuss.
had she been following the guidlance set out by her social workers she would not hsav discussed the childrens past and therefore you would not be feeling so torn.

i havent had the chance to read the whole post as yet so aplogies if i am repeating anything, have you actually met the girls yet? or are you basing your opinions on their behaviour on what your freind has told you?
if so then i would take it with a pinch of salt. its very easy for us toexagerate the bhaviours of children as we get exasperated with the constant pressure of dealing with them.

but i get the distinct impr`ession that you would like us to say its ok for youto not invite these chidlren to your home.....ITS OK.

if these girls were frequent visitors and you sudenly stoppe contacting them becasue you had found out then that of course would be wrong, but you have no bond with these chidlren and they would be none the wiser as to your decision.
dont feel guilty, but do please spak to your freind and advise her that such discussion of a charge's history is very VERY wrong and she couyld easily find herself in a lot of trouble because of it.