a really good one for grammar fans. apostrophes and plurals and french and everything

[thewomanwhothoughtshewasahat]

here we go. State party. (as in state party to an international treaty) I have always used what I believe to be the technically correct plural of states parties. (I assume this is because the noun is actually "state" and "party" plays an adjectival role and for some reason retains its French positioning and habits of agreement.)

so two questions

1. is this correct?
2. if you want to write about the obligations that belong to either a state party in the singular or states parties in the plural where would you put the apostrophe of possesion?

Wow, an interesting one!
Actually, I would have used English rules on this and stuck with states party for the plural.
I would also cop out and somehow manage to use the "obligation of the party states" to convey the possessive

do you know what? I wanted to write it, stopped dead in my tracks, came on here, spent far longer than is healthy composing that post, returned to ny document and immediately rephrased the sentence to avoid it altogether!

Could we have a thick emoticon please!! - as I can't understand this one!!

Good plan, hat! States parties sounds very wrong to me but I don't know any formal grammar or French to back up my position. I would definitely go for a cop out too.

Rephrasing is what my mother (a grammer pedantic Englisdh teacher) would recommend!

FWIW, and I don't know the context you were going to use it, I would have suggested "States party" - but I'm not sure I've fully grapsed the conext. If you take your explanation of the term "as in state party to an international treaty" - if you make that plural, you would say "states party to an international treaty" and not "states parties to an international treaty".

I agree that you would say "States party to the International Convention for the Presevation of Shortbread". But you may then want to say in your next sentence "States parties are obliged not to allow manufacturers to use margarine." States parties is commonly used here. It sounds wrong I know and many people would use "State parties" but I don't think that's right. And I don't think "States party" would be right either. And if in your next sentence you want to say "The precise scope of States' parties obligations under the Convention have proved controversial." then you get in right pickle over your apostrophe. or you rephrase

Agree the plural would be 'States party to the treaty' but I want to parse it like 'member states', giving:

Party States are obliged not to allow manufacturers to use margarine.
and
The precise scope of Party States' obligations under the Convention has proved controversial.
(see me curmudgeoning - the scope (singular) has proved controversial )

I like Party States as well.

Don't really like States parties as it is "States who are party to..." so shouldn't be plural.

Good question though

ScummyMummy, worse than wrong, I would say state parties sound very dull

Does "states parties" have a specific technical meaning, then? Sounds v clunky to me. Is it a kind of shorthand for [All] states [who are] parties [to the convention]?

it'd be 'all states which are party to the treaty' anyway - party in this instance is an adjective,
like in 'all people who are present at the event'

So maybe 'States party' should parse like 'persons present'?

No clue how it all works in French though.

Party states might be a neat solution but it's never used. In 8 years of reading (and writing) documents with states parties in I have never seen it. have only ever seen "states parties" or "state parties".

at my has/have slip. But I can be a curmudgeon too. I believe "all states that are party to the convention" would be an improvement. ho ho. he he.

hehe - what a pair of curmudgeons we are!

am I too late?

def states party.

still not understanding this!!

In French, adjectives become plural along with nouns. Which I assume is why it's "states parties" rather than "states party" or something else.

yes, but neither word is french. it should follow the english pattern (like "passers by" etc). now a french phrase like chaise longue might take the french plural - chaises longues, but that's different.