Sunny Cape Town vs Cosmopolitan London... where would you live?

[dejags]

DH and I are planning to move country when our new baby is 6 weeks old and DS is 3 years old. Withouth wishing to bore you to death the background is:

We have a house here + £40K worth of loans (c/card and personal loan), when we add up the repayment on our mortgage, the loan, credit card and the £700 per month we have to shell out for DS's childminder a month we are barely surviving - about £25 per month disposable income . Considering that we have a joint income of £70k per year this is gutting. If we moved back to SA we would sell the house here and re-invest any profit we make on it.

We have a house and car in SA (both fully paid for) and quite a lot of cash and because of this we have almost decided to move back there. The reasons aren't purely financial, other reasons include a) having a support system there (family & friends to babysit and help out with the kids), b) Cape Town is really beautiful c) we would have a beach lifestyle - the kids would spend their weekends on the beach or in the pool d) the weather is great almost all year round e) we could afford to have some help at home with ironing/cleaning 3 days a week f) I could stay at home with the kids

I get full pay for six months (I will be on maternity leave), so for the first 3/4 months we will be living on my UK salary. Thereafter DH is looking into starting his own business/consultancy.

95% of me is raring to go and cannot wait to leave, the other 5% of me is thinking about the crime in SA, unpredictable economy and the fact that if DH cannot make a go of his own business he will not get a job.

Are we mad or is quality of life worth sacrificing a little bit of the "devil we know"? what would you do?

Go
We are moving to Australia this year for similar reasons
If you want someone to talk you out of London, (where we live) email me and I can give you 1001 reasons.
Seriously

What an exciting yet daunting prospect Dejags. Looking out of the window on a grey London day and thinking of my mortgage from hell, there is no contest with glorious Cape Town, but I understand what you say about the downsides and risk. Rather than burn your bridges at once, would it be possible to rent out your house in the UK for, say, six months to a year to cover your mortgage and bills, and give you the option of coming back if things don't work out (in particular DH's work)? It sounds like a great opportunity and perfect timing with your maternity leave being paid.

thanks SW... I am leaning towards your way of thinking...

Azure - unfortunately what we could realise from a rental would leave us about £1000 short of our expenses so renting out the house here isn't an option

dejags, my best friend moved to Cape Town and what little I know of it she feels it is safe. You are going to have a support system and not be on your own, so go!

I think London is one of the most beautiful, historic, interestihg, exciting and tolerant places on earth........ but then I'm biased as I'm from here originally and I totally understand why other people may not agree. Personally I would hate to live somewhere that was excessively hot, provincial or country-fied as I'm a townie through and through. I think I'd find the beach life boring. BUT I think it matters where you can feel at home most, therefore you'll be happy and where you can afford most comfort and freedom.
Another issue for me is that I have a child with autism and I don't think there are many places that compare for services, access to helpers, support, other families etc.

We are in a similr situation toyou about leaving london to go to srilanka. What keeps us here is my dm and sister

Another good thing about the UK is having the rest of Europe on the doorstep

And as much as we all complain, the health system here is really good (compared to what you get in South Africa - unless you are loaded in which case you go private), there is public transport which you can use instead of just look at and be too scared to get onto, your chances of having your car broken into, hijacked or stolen are a lot lower in England than in SA, Cape Town has grotty winters and very hot summers - can your little ones stand 40C which is what it was last week?

But oh how wonderful to be able to have your family with you and to be able to stay at home - a difficult decision so good luck!

CP & Davros - great to have a different view

On the weather front I am definitely a hot weather person having grown up in Cape Town - 40 degrees is unusually hot but I would be happy with daily temp of 30 degrees.

I know exactly what you mean about healthcare though - it will cost us a lot

Oops pressed post message before I had finished discussing with DH. We have worked out that we pay nearly £600 a month in NHS contributions - we will only pay about £200 for the family in South Africa for comprehensive private healthcare so it actually works out cheaper. I never looked at it that way but DH pointed this out...

dejags definately do it!
I grew up in Africa (Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Swaziland) and it was the best childhood anyone could have wished for. There is not a day goes by when I don't think of the sun I would move tomorrow if i could, even a holiday would be nice (parents in ghana at the mo, a bit different - haven't quite gathered up the courage to take the kids there yet)
I would love to bring up my kids somewhere like where I grew up.
I know you have some doubts, but if you don't go, I bet you always wish you had (especially every winter)

Saw my Capetownian friend last night who lives here, but has just returned from 6 weeks there. She said that it gets better and better each year she returns, it feels much safer than a few years ago, integration is continuing (although obviously a long way to go), and the life style, well, you know all about that !

Downside is earning power - although she wants to go back at some point,she's earning much more in London, and although she owns a house in CT, she wants to buy one here to hedge her bets so to speak.

One point she raised is that property prices are really going up in CT - her house has increased by 95% over (i believe) the last two/three years. What about investing some of your profit from the house in London in some property development there ?

Hi Vivat & Wallace

Earning power is exactly what's been keeping us here - the average wage in South Africa is dismal with a capital D. But with 2 kids the balance will definitely shift when taking into account childcare costs.

I think by answering all of your replies I have provided myself with the answer I was looking for. For every negative about going I have been able to come up with a strong positive.

Having grown up in Cape Town I don't think I'll ever settle down as a city dweller.

Thanks for all of your replies..

dejags

good for you
(we can form an ex-pat clique along with eidswold and get the our British culture kicks vicariously through the lovely British MNers)

Hope you enjoy being SAHM

Great idea SW

When are you planning your exit then?

We are hoping for 1st week of November, just in time for SA summer. We are going to make the first 6-8 weeks a holiday (will book a chalet on the beach) - this will be a great stress free way to get used to the new baby. During the holiday we'll buy a bigger house and hopefully be able to move in when our holiday comes to an end.

I really am getting excited now

Dejags
I'm going to email you, if you don't mind

Dejags, your maternity leave provision sounds fantastic! Who do you work for?? Are you sure it doesn't come with a proviso that you must return to work for a stipulated period after the leave in order to qualify for that much? Sorry to throw a spanner and all that. Just thought it might be worth checking. Also can you tell me how you worked out the NHS contributions? I need to do this too! Other than that, I'd GO GO GO!!!

dejags - go for it!

You only regret the things you don't do and will have 'what ifs' for ever if you don't try it. If things don't work out, come back. I did a similar thing to you but we were emigrating to Canada, decided to come home when I was pregnant, bought another house, and started again! But in the meantime we had travelled the world for 12 months like kings and had an adventure.

Good luck!

SW - got your email, thanks and am replying now

Janinlondon - this was the first thing I checked with HR. I have ensured that my maternity provision has been confirmed in writing and that there is definitely not any requirement for working out my notice period. We really are lucky - we get 26 weeks full pay and then an additional 26 weeks on no pay which is great. We also have room to negotiate a further 3 months on no pay which is given at managers discretion. Annual leave is also accrued during maternity leave and I can tag my entire leave entitlement for the year (6 weeks) onto my maternity leave. At least if things go wrong in SA one of us will have a job to come back to.

I base our national insurance contributions on the breakdown in mine and DH's wage slips. HTH

Thanks Dejags. Does your employer need a replacement for you when you go? Sounds like a dream job to me!!! I volunteer to take your place!

Hi Jan - it is a good job, I work for a very large company, hence the perks - the policy is not to fill Project Management roles for maternity cover - the other project managers will just have to pick up my projects when I leave

dejags, my point exactly, if its where you grew up then its bound to feel more like home and have very great attractions for you. Deep down, or not even so deep, we all want our kids to have a childhood somewhat like our own. As someone else said, you could always come back..... or go somewhere else if it doesn't work out, a bit drastic I know but possible. I think my maternity leave was something like yours and I was working for a university, maybe I imagined it???? NI doesn't only cover health provision does it? just out of interest. Mind you, I've just dropped my son off at the Science Museum, drove back through Hyde Park and, although its grey and rainy, there are tons of daffs are waiting to burst out, I just love the seasons here and have never understood why people dislike the weather here so much... but I must be a freak!!!

Davros - I love London as you do! I'm not a Londoner by birth, moved here for college in 1987 and have NEVER wanted to leave. I love visiting back "home" but could not live back there. As far as I'm concerned, London is a fab place to live and bring up children. If we lived near my parents we could buy a huge house with gardens etc, here we live in a smallish flat but I still love my life here.
Thats my opinion on London but everyone is different.

Posey, how nice to get a positive message! At my last job, which was in research for a university, I was shocked by how vehement many of my colleagues were about how much they hated London. I think it was different at this job as I worked mostly with people who were not native Londoners and they had been living quite a studenty life for some years (doing PhDs etc). I think I was the first person many of them had met who actually liked it here, plus it was my home and I thought rather rude to slag it off as an acceptable routine attitude. When I pointed this out, and said what if I slagged off Liverpool/Manchester/Dublin (fill in the blank) they were quite shocked I am a bit of a London geek though with many, many books on the architecture and history, many copies of Pepys diary and still reading that last biography, I'm a member of the London Topographical Society and I've got stacks of books on the London Underground! Believe me, the Underground is a hell of a lot better than it was 30 years ago. Anyway, sorry to hijack but don't often get a chance to vent my enthusiasm!

Davros - what you said about people slagging off London is something that REALLY bugs me and dh.
I don't mind if people have tried it and don't like it, its certainly not for everyone. But the common one, especially from people I used to know in my pre London days is "how can you possibly live there? Its so dirty, noisy, unfriendly..blah blah place" For one, we don't live in the middle of Leicester Square do we?! Also I've got to say where I live now (for past 8 years) is the friendliest place I've ever lived. I can't nip to the shops quickly because I always bump into neighbours, people from school etc (dd's school is across the road)and stop and chat. As for things to do, you never run out of places to visit and the sea and country are day trip distance...

No I don't work for Ken Livingstone, I just think London is FAB