Obedience - how much is enough?

[eefs]

I can be quite strict on my two DS's (5 and 2), we have great times and I roll around on the floor tickling them as well but I do insist that they obey me when I ask them to do something (I think it's so important for children to have manners and respect other people and property). Now they are both lively, cheeky things so not under the thumb at all.
Anyway, yesterday I bought them both swimming, after an hour or so, DS2 was tired and we were all hungry so I told DS1 we had to leave and got out of the pool to wait for him. "No" he says, swimming into the middle of the pool while I feel the eyes of a hundred disapproving parents on me waiting for my next move. Calmly I told him again it was time to go and a third time through clenched teeth. The other parents were sharing popcorn watching us at this stage, DS1 was in the middle of the pool clinging onto a lane divider as if the force of my stare was pulling him towards me. I was annoyed, but powerless so I went onto the changing rooms and DS1, deprived of his attention followed me shortly. There was another incident later when he looked at me straight in the eye and refused to do as I asked - he was sitting dangerously near a road so I asked him to come close to me. His punishment was no bedtime story last night, but by the time bedtime came (a good 4-5 hours later) he was quite upset over it but I didn't cave.
Neither of these are big issues, but the principle for me is DS1 not doing as he is told, and while I know he's only little, I need to have an effective strategy for dealing with this for the bigger issues.
Anyway, he's 5, the naughtly step is not as effective anymore, corporal punishment is out, yet I wonder is he too young for delayed punishment to be effective? It's the feeling of being powerless that gets to me, What do you do to keep control?

not an expert on this. but have always found it best to "punish" as soon as poss. 4/5 hrs is a lifetime in a 5yrolds eyes and he will have forgotton what he had done

I'm just starting to get some of this with dd (4)
Don't how much use my thoughts are but I'd probably not have left the pool before I had buy in from the child, it's so much harder to discipline them from a distance without sounding like a fish wife. The low voice with menace is still effective with mine.
I agree with you in the doubts about whether delayed punishment works. I prefer something immediate - for me too as I don't like being cross for too long, or revisiting crossness at the end of the day.
I still find the programme of events thing works well ie giving them a clear idea of what's coming next. 'In 5 mins this is going to happen, then this and if you don't help me with this then there'll be no this etc'
It is hard but I'm right with you in retaining the control.

I think you did good!

He's pushing the boundaries and seeing if you will cave, by not doing so you're sending a clear message. Keep up the good work!

As a mother of a five year old who occasionally defies (defy: very old fashioned word not much used in modern parenting manuals) a perfectly reasonable and reasonably put request, I think that's an excellent question. The naughty step sort of works for us but actually tends to escalate the situation. The most effective tactic for me is getting down to eye-level, but at a reasonable distance and talking to her in a very very cross voice, somewhere close to a shout. DH has been know to slam his hand down on the table and shout 'Do it and do it now.' Also very effective if a bit blush-worthy. I think the reason it's effective is DH says it once very forcefully and then when DD has done whatever was asked of her, he continues as if nothing has happened.

None of this sounds very attractive but DD1 seems to be reasonably well-adjusted.....

And I agree. We don't delay punishments either. The deprivation of the bed-time story (one if not the biggest punishment we can deliver) is only ever used for refusal to clean teeth, put on pyjamas etc.

My two dds get "the look" from me. Very cross looking stare. They hate it. The "deep" sounding voice too.
I have used a lot of bribary in the past but always make the mistake of telling them they can't have things that I know are unavoidable (eg won't go on holiday when it's already booked, won't have friend round to play when their friend is desperately excited to come round etc).

I find giving the 5 minute warning before we leave anywhere works really well. If my dd refuses to come after that - I calmly tell her that next time if I can't trust her to leave when I ask, then I will not bring her to the pool/friends house etc again in the future.

The naughty step used to work, but doesn't anymore as she keeps getting up. So if she is being exceptionally defiant or in a mad hissy fit I tend to remove myself to another room until she calms down. I do also try as far as possible to praise her for her good behaviour more than telling her to always toe the line - but I find this very difficult - especially if I am having a bad day or am very tired

I think sometimes you have to accept the feeling of powerlessness, and turn it to your advantage, as you did when you just left your ds in the pool.

I personally hate the whole control/obedience thing with children, because my mother was very keen on it. If you have a naturally non-rebellious child, you risk squashing them into perpetual obedience.

I therefore try not to get into control/obedience situations with my children. Sometimes, I just let them do naughty things, where the consequences are not important, or where they can easily understand how silly they were.

Occasionally, I let them get away with things that I told them not to do, if I do a quick reassessment, and decide its not that important after all.

When its a matter of safety, or annoying the neighbours, or something else unacceptable, the children usually sense that I am genuinely angry, as opposed to just frustrated that they wont do as they are told.

Agree with Nightynight. There are biggies and smallies. It's not personal, children are just finding their identity.

Sometimes, giving them a bit of say/control when it does not really matter or when it is just inconvenient as opposed to dangerous/anti-social (even if it is not what you asked them to do/not to do) gives you more leverage for when you REALLY need to bring on the big guns.

Agree with you Issymum, I feel draconion by even saying the word Punishment, seems to be treated all nicey nicey these days.

I got into a cycle of shouting at them before but it just wound (that looked wrong, winded?) me up and upset them (and I heard DS1 shouting at DS2 later in exactly the same way:)) so try not to do that. I do try the 5 minute reminders etc but sometimes I just need him to do what he's asked.
I didn't like withholding the story last night, it felt like I'd held a grudge to carry out the punishment so much later but I had to carry though.
What do you do when you're out and about though - I don't want to sound like a fishwife screeching across the park, but DS1 seems to know he can get away with open defience in public. It's not like I can turn off the tv or send him to his room.
Ok, I sound like a wagon, 99% of the time he's a little pet and I really enjoy his company but this ignoring me or refusing to do as (reasonable) asked situations seem to be increasing.

what sort of behaviour is reasonable to expect from a 5 yr old?

One of the things that I learned with DS1 (mildly autistic) that works just as well with DS2 is that it's no good just suddently announcing that it's time to get out of the pool or whatever. I would always do a ten-minute warning, a five-minute warning, a two-minute warning, a one-minute warning and then say right, time to get out now.

I would try that normally but yesterday when DS2 got out of the pool he pulled down his trunks and I could tell he was about to christen the deck so needed to get him to a toilet quickly.

Oh, whoops.

The timed warnings trick also works well with dh

What about giving him a choice - eg "It's your choice whether to stay in the pool or not, but next time we come you'll have to sit at the side and watch ds2 swimming unless you can show that you are able to get out when I ask." And then follow it up the next time you go swimming by asking him if he will be able to get out when you ask before he gets into his swimming togs.