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Original poster

planning permission

15 replies

noddyholder · 02/05/2006 15:53

We have just moved.We are in a conservation area so the fronts are all sash windows and can't be touched.We need to replace the back door which is at the rear and no one but us can see but the council sats planning permission adn drawings etc is required for this address.All the houses at the back have a mixture of types of doors and windows and I am tempted to just change it without planning as it takes 10 weeks minimum to decide and they may still say no!!!Who will ever know it is new in years to come?Or am I storing up trouble for the future?

OP posts:
Original poster
noddyholder · 02/05/2006 16:24

bump

OP posts:
Squarer · 02/05/2006 16:28

Hiya Noddy Smile

Planning isn't my area particularly, but I guess you're Grade II listed then?
You could just go ahead and change it. The council will only be aware if someone complains. You would then have to apply for permission retrospectively - the council cannot take this into consideration so the process would go ahead as it would if you were to apply before doing it but all the while having a new door... so as long as you choose carefully you should be ok (as far as I can see). The bummer would be if it was rejected. However, they can't physically remove your door, so you could argue semantics for ages if you were so inclined.

I think that planning permission has to be shown when you sell a house, but how many people would know that you needed planning permission for a door??

I don't understand why you would need a drawing for a door though. Unless it is a drawing of the door only?

lucykate · 02/05/2006 16:29

only when you come to sell the house. you will be asked to provide a list of any changes you've made and relevant consents in writing.

we've just been stung by this with our garage, dh organised it all but i've since found out he 'forgot' to arrange a visit by the building regs department. we are now having to go through a site visit etc retrospectivley as the lady buying our house has asked for all the paperwork.

Original poster
noddyholder · 02/05/2006 16:34

We are not listed only conservation I think when people replace the sashes they have a point and I wouldn'tdream of touching them but this is an old 70's rotten back door which doesn't lock and I don't think they will know tbh if we put a door in who will know how long it has been there!The woman at the council is so unhelpful!

OP posts:
Squarer · 02/05/2006 16:45

Councils have a habit of speaking in a language known as "councilese" which makes no sense whatsoever. A little known fact is that many of them are also terrified of people and use "councilese" to ensure that they cannot be questioned (as they don't know what they are on about).
Ring the council again and ask them to send you a copy of their policy on requiring planning permission for your area (or ask for the name of the document to which they are referring). Was the area made a conservation area after the last door? (I am not convinced on the legalities of such stringent planning requirements).

jamiesam · 02/05/2006 17:03

Noddyholder

Planning often does seem mad, but if the Council has placed an article 4 (I think) direction on your conservation area, then it would mean (for example) that planning permission is required for any material change to the appearance of windows or doors. Obviously, this is meant to stop people taking out nice doors and putting in, say, UPVC. But unfortunately, it also has the effect of requiring planning permission to take out something inappropriate and putting something nicer back in place.

The Council and the Planners are only interpreting the legislation that the Government wrote! It often doesn't make sense to Planners either, but it doesn't really help you if the Planners say 'this is really stupid and I don't think you should have to do it but you need planning permission, with fully detailed drawings'.

You could double check with the Council what the article 4 direction says in case it doesn't deal with back doors?

But if the Council found out you've done the work, they could take enforcement action to make you put it right (obviously highly unlikely in these circumstances - make sure you get a picture of the door at it's most ugly!)

And I'd second what others say about consequences on resale - bit of an unknown quantity as it depends at the moment on how good the purchasers solicitors are, but if the 'home information packs' (not sure what their real name is) you will have to declare 'I've not done anything to the house that needed planning permission' or 'here is the planning permission for what I've done'.

Squarer · 02/05/2006 17:11

Hi Jamiesam - haven't seen you for ages (it's me, Serah) Smile

Didn't know you worked for the council Grin

Squarer · 02/05/2006 17:15

\link{http://www.richmond.gov.uk/article_4_direction\article 4}

Squarer · 02/05/2006 17:24

What area do you live in Noddy? Might be able to find out what it says for you - but note that this one says that no fee is payable for Planning Applications submitted under Article 4. Bet your bottom dollar that it is written (in legalese) in the Article itself so a fee can't apply.
Sorry for intermittent spoutings - am in the midsts of the early evening rush of feeding, bathing, reading etc etc Smile

jamiesam · 02/05/2006 21:37

Hi Squarer, how are you!

I'm a long time out of Development Control - you're quite right, there is no fee payable where planning permission is only required because of an Article 4 direction (says so in the Fee Regs, I just had to look them up, how sad is that, can quote them for you if nec noddyholder...)

Squarer · 02/05/2006 22:00

I'm pretty good (in a slightly fixed grin kind of way if you know what I mean!)
Hows your search for an over-bump pregnancy thong going? [omni-present overlord type emoticon]
Don't feel sad about knowing about Fee Regs - I know nth degree stuff about double yellow lines. I can out-sad you any day!

Are you coming to the Castle/Farm meetups?
Sorry for hijack Noddy Smile
PS.. FWIW Noddy, if you have a security issue going off, I would ask (nay, demand) to speak to your local planning officer, knowing that fees are not applicable, and explain that it is a serious security issue. Please can they come out to see you for an urgent site meeting in view of the situation the planning laws are putting you in etc etc. I'm sure I read something about being able to sue the council due to Article 4 issues, so they should take you seriously.

jamiesam · 02/05/2006 22:21

Hi-jack alert... lol - haven't been to shops yet for my size (wait for it) 20 thong!!

No, won't be doing the meet-ups (I'm not really very good at them - have a lovely time!) Hi-jack over.

Noddy - hate to disagree with Squarer, but planning officers don't have the authority to grant you a permission on site as it were. Sensible planning or conservation officer might tell you what ought to get planning permission - but they aren't all sensible. Also there are massive staffing problems in my Council at the moment so I'm afraid you'd get short shrift if you phoned up and said 'get here now' as it were. Just don't want you to be disappointed if response not what you'd hoped for. IME, people who get the best response (in life) are the nice, reasonable people.

Squarer · 02/05/2006 22:37

Ooh, yes - wasn't suggesting saying it with a cats bum type mouth Grin IME though you can make an ally by getting the planning officer on board, and although they are understaffed they should be able to put a security issue over and above an extension given the limitations of Article 4.

PS what do you mean you're not very good at meetups Jamiesam? I really enjoyed your company! (but don't be dissing size 20 thongs - you have met me remember!)

jamiesam · 03/05/2006 20:16

Ah but Squarer, don't forget that I have met you and you were never a size 20.

Squarer · 03/05/2006 22:23

erm... yes I was!

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