dd was bitten by a dog at a kids party today

[Moomin]

The dogs were kept indoors for most of the party then someone let them out towards the end. Dd1 who's 4 loves dogs and was stroking them in the garden. At the end of the party she went indoors to use the toilet. One of the dogs was standing in the kitchen from what we can gather and dd went to stroke her again and the dog went for her and bit her face.

dh found her crying hysterically and realised what had happened. The skin on her cheek was punctured in one place and was bleeding a bit, the rest of her cheek was swollen. He came out to tell me carrying her and i think i was in shock. The parents of the kid whose party it was were apologetic but not horrified. They have 3 kids under 4 and apparently the dogs have never done this before. I think i was in shock. we decided to go home not to hospital as we had the baby with us too and i rang nhs direct when we got in. Her tetanus is up to date but Dh took her up to primary care on the advice of the nurse on the phone and they prescribed antibiotics just in case.

the dad rang dh to see how dd was. I think i still can't believe how close she came to being really badly hurt i feel quite numb. I was so angry when we left i could hardly speak. It was all so fucking middle class, dh saying to them not to worry and them saying oh dear but not too loudly in case we spoiled the end of their ds's party (well that's what it felt like)

Moomin - Just to let you know I am a "doggy" person, the dogs in my life have always been like children to me etc etc.

However, if a dog of mine bit a child (mine or someone else's) I would deal with the matter immediatly - and finally, there can be no world in which it is ok for an animal who lives in our home with our children to be able to bite one of them full stop IMO.

I think you have done the right thing - no matter how reasonable you try ot be, one day you may hear that a child has been horribly mauled by this dog and - no doubt - you would consider yourself partially responsible if you had taken no action when you could.

Just to say I think you've done the right thing, Moomin.

I wasn't certain initially because I remember when our 3 yr old dog bit a 6 yr old boy (a warning bite, not a puncture wound) we were so shocked by his behaviour I am sure we must have come across as a bit 'blank' when apologising to the parents, but seeing as you've now talked to them and they haven't themselves taken any action with the dog then you've definately done the right thing.

In our case, after our guests left we called round and got something like 6 or 7 different professional opinions - from the original breeder of our dog, some dog behaviourists and 3 vets, and they were completely unanimous that any dog that actually bites someone (whether serious or not) effectively 'learns' a biting behaviour and will bite again when it feels threatened. I was distraught when I put the dog down later that day, but the behaviourists are quite clear on this - from the very first biting instance onwards a dog is dangerous.

It will bite their kids next so you're doing them a huge favour, even though they won't appreciate that.

2labs - that's really interesting. We have a 6 month old lab who the children adore - and he is very, very good with them. But I know I can never assume that this will always be. As far as his training goes is there anything you would recommend from your experience which helps keep them as 'safe' with children as possible?

Yes I think you did the right thing

Dogs that bite should be dealt with.

There are a few things you can do (and not do) cupcakes but I don't want to take the thread too far off track. Maybe worth you starting a separate thread in 'pets'?

2labs - I should have made clear that when she said American Bulldog I said you mean a Pit Bull and she said yes. I am aware that it is a different breed but people who are still breeding Pits have started calling them ABs.
I do agree with what you say though (I think with the exception of Pitbulls!). I am a staffy owner and have been biting my lip through some parts of this thread

Gosh I didn't know that Whiffy. I have a friend who has a dog (a collie) and he once bit a child - she ran up to him in the street and put her face right up to him to kiss him, and of course he bit her - not badly, it was a warning nip, but it was on the face and it's a dogbite. It was reported and the police told her that if he bit again, he would be put down. I didn't know that they get put down immediately now bosscat, unless there's good reason not to. Since then, my friend has him muzzled whenever she takes him out, in case any other child repeats it. Is there no such thing as a one-off bite then? This has made me worried about my kids being round him.

thanks 2labs.

2labs probably better than I do, but from what we were told at the time unless there is really extreme provocation (persecuting a dog or coming between a mother and her pups, say) then I think that's the general rule, a biter can never be trusted again, no matter what the history.

The people who advised us all said that it was ok not to put him down if we kept him muzzled in company, but with kids in our own house that would have meant 24/7 muzzling which would have been too cruel.

We have a 12 year-old dog still, who is soft as mash and who is forever getting his tail and ears pulled by our DS, and he never does anything more than raise his eyebrows to us as if to say 'not again!', but even though we'd swear he was harmless, we are wiser now and we would never leave him alone in the same room as DS.

Sorry Cligula, I know that message wasn't what you wanted to hear. Maybe 2labs has more concrete advice on dealing with dogs/kids..if I were you I'd make sure your kids know to respect the dog and not torment him when they are at your friends' house ...but always a fine line to draw with kids between making them aware and not scaring them away from dogs..

Agree. My DS (6) is very cautious but DD (4) isn't. I never let them be alone with him and am treated like a neurotic idiot because of this. But I don't really think any dogs should be left alone with children, really, they just aren't conscious enough of boundaries and they can be hurt more by a bite than an adult.

No I'm afraid not Caligula as far as the law is concerned there is no "one bite" pass. Although, the court has the discretion in a one bite case, if an expert can convince them that the dog is not a danger to public safety to issue a control order. But it totally depends on the circs. They might need majorly convincing if it bit a child on the face for instance. My problem in my case is that the dog is a Japanese Ikita which everyone rolls their eyes at when I tell them. They have a bad press and are known as aggressive dogs although I genuinely do think in this instance the guy who got in the middle was a bit foolish although he was just trying to save his dog obviously.

I've just spoken to the PC assigned to the case. He told me we could either press for court action or ask the police to inform the dog warden for the area. After speaking to him about the details I decided to go the dog warden route. The DW has immediate juristiction to make them control the dog (eg muzzle it etc) and will 'lay down the law' as it were. If we took it to court we might end up with the dog being destroyed but there's no guaranteee - and i don't know if that's what i want anyway.

I think dh will ring them tonight and tell them this is what we've decided to do. It'll probably be the end of his friendship with her but he now says he's not bothered if that's the way she takes it. It's awful that we are having to press for something to be done rather than them offering any solution themselves. When our dog snapped at dd she didn't even touch dd but we made the immediate decision (with my dad's agreement) that the dog go to live with him. It was fairer on the dog too, she has a much more peaceful life living with him and dd and her have a lovely relationship.

I'm so pissed off it has all come to this but I don't give a monkeys what this family think now. The DW will ring me to let us know what happened after he goes to see them. As the PC on the phone said 'the DW is a great chap, he's an ex-bobby so he knows all about what can happen. He loves dogs but he doesn't love them biting anyone, esp children.'

Moomin that terrible. How is DD now?

moomin, sorry to hear about the incident and do hope dd is ok. Your action sounds very sensible but am also shocked that the family have not done anything voluntarily or even bothered to check how your dd is.

I too was bitten as a child, by a small dog on the leg, and was blamed for entering the gate ahead of the family (I hadn't heard a warning not to). Did make me more wary of dogs.

she seems fine today. her face is still swollen and looks a bit lop-sided but she's fine in herself. A friend of mine helped out with pre-school this morning and she texted me this afternoon and say how well she thought dd was taking it which was a relief. Dh told the teachers there about it today so that when she told people they didn't make a big issue out of it, which might in turn make dd think she ought to be making a bigger thing of it, iyswim!

another thing the Pc said actually is that the family ought to think themselves very lucky that it wasn't going to court. It's only because I told him the hospital said there wouldnt be any permanent scarring that he advised going through the dog warden, although he said i was obviously free to choose what action to take, I think i've chosen the right route... i hope so anyway.

Moomin your dd sounds very brave and sensible. You have definitely done the right thing.

This thread has really made me think again about some of the dogs I know, one of which has bitten twice and has had some dogtherapy, but is still treated like the baby of the family (a definite 'can't have a third baby so we'll get a dog' dog). I have always felt a bit neuroic about keeping my children away from him but not now.

Moomin, I hope your dd is feeling better and you've absolutely done the right thing. I am a big dog lover and miss my old lab immensely but after she died decided no way could we have another with 2 small children.
I know of a little boy who was bitten by a rottwieler ( no idea how to spell that!), really hurt his legs with several puncture marks. His mom wasn't in the least bit bothered, as far as she was concerned her son wasn't seriously hurt so it didn't matter! I could not believe it! She hasn't taken him to the doctors, hospital nothing to have him checked out let alone report the dog! They are that horrible that if he's ever naughty they threaten to throw him over the fence to the dog!!!!!
Some people are horrible and will not take any responsibility for their animals or children!
Well done for reporting it and looking out for your daughters and other childrens interests! I'm sure local parents will thank you for it.

i know exactly what you mean puddle. Of all her friends, dd has always been the least worried about dogs and loves them but we've always laid down strict rules about how to approach them. She knows she must always go to the owner first and ask if she can talk to or stroke them and only with one of us there with her too. At the party on Saturday that's exactly what she did when they came running out into the garden, asked if it was ok to stroke them and was told yes so she did it standing next to me. I guess when she saw the one dog again inside the house she assumed it would be ok again and that's whe it happened

have read moomins opening post but not the rest and as a dog owner and lover i would say the dog needs sorting.

if a child is deliberately winding a dog up then i dont have much sympathy, kids should be taught to respect animals and not tease, but a tot minding it's own business should not be bitten.

now that dog has bitten moomins child means that it is likely to bite the owners children. just because it knows their kids doesnt make much difference.

the fact the dogs were kept away from the kids and only accidently released is suspect to me also. it sounds to me the dogs have possibly been a prob in the past but the owners are not too bothered.

my dogs are very precious to me and were my 'kids' before my son was born. lucky for me that are very gentle,docile and tolerant, but if they hurt my kids, or anyone elses, i would have them put down in a flash.

although i have every confidence in my dogs, if i was holding a party for kids i would lock them away or get a relative to have them for the day.

moomin, im very sorry about your tot being bitten.
it angers me as i feel i rank my dogs in the correct position in the family, not all people do.

:(

moomin its up to you not the PC if you want to push for court. He has to send the file to the CPS and they will make the decision whether to prosecute. If you feeling was strong about it in my experience they would. The dog warden view is an option but its definitely a soft one.

The thing about kids winding a dog up - I agree that you can't expect a dog not to be a dog and in that case it is practically inevitable that such a child will get bitten - but imo, a dog and a child shouldn't be left unsupervised, because some children don't understand that they mustn't wind dogs up or do understand and do it anyway. And they shouldn't be allowed to put themselves in that danger, anymore than a naughty child should be left alone with matches.

Moomin, I read this this morning before work but didn't have time to post.
I am sorry about what happened to your DD, and very glad you have decided to do something about it. If the dog were to bite again, even if no more hurt than your dd, you'd never forgive yourself.
I hope that that your friends do not take it personally and understand that the safety or yours and other children comes before the dog iyswim.
We owned a dog when I was little, very protective of the family and once ran out of the house and jumped up and bit the arm of a lady chatting to my mum (think she was hovering over my sis who the dog was very protective of). Luckily the woman had a big coat on so the bite didn't penetrate anything. But my parents made the decision that they could not keep the dog anymore in case it attacked a child or seriously injured an adult, and the dog was given to somebody my parents knew and retrained to be an army dog. I think this is the route that all dog owners should take, once a dog bites, I personally feel it should be taken away from a family environment
I am glad that your dd seems better today.

Dh tried to ring the owners tonight to tell them we are taking it further but no reply so he left a message. Not ideal but don't know what else to do. The PC did say that we can still push for court after the dog warden has been, if we're still not happy with his assessment and consequent rulings. I think i'd rather do it in stages like this than go straight for the most extreme option at this point. I still can't believe we have to be the ones driving this; the owners are being so passive.