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[Hayley15900]

Hi everyone, I am new to this website.. I am 18 and have a one son he is almost 15 months old. I have a quite a bit of trouble with him sleeping, he just dosent sleep, his bedtime is anything after midnight, and he shares my bed. I was wondering if any of you had ideas on how to get my little one to sleep at a normal time. I have tried to get him into a routine since birth, but he wouldnt have none of it and I gave up when he was 8 months old. Thankyou Hayley

Hi Hayley15900 - This bedtime routine is a tough one (quite literally). I've got 3 kids and was quite strict about bedtimes, basically because I was so knackered, but also to have some kiddy free time in the evenings to unwind. My HV advised me on this routine and although it can be heavy going at first, the end results are worth it. I started the routine when mine were 7 mths, so at 15 mths, it may be a bit trickier, but hang in there.

What you have to do is put him into his cot (if he still has a nap in the daytime, you could start then, as you will have more energy to cope) and settle him down for a sleep. Now at this stage, you know that he will cry, so leave him for a couple of moments and then go back in and comfort him, that way he will learn that you will be coming back. You must then repeat this process of keep going in and out, until he finally falls asleep. At first, it may take a couple of hours of him screaming and you going in and out before he settles, which can be very distressing for you as his mum to listen to (I know, I've been there) But his crying is most likely to be anger at you leaving him and you know that he can't come to any harm in his cot. If someone could come round and support you for the first couple of times that would really help. Persevere with the routine, as there will be times when his crying will make you want to give up, but remember, a week of crying as he gets used to the routine will save you a lifetime of knackered evenings with a kiddy running about! I actually saw a TV programme about a woman who used this routine on her son, I think he was nearly 2, and it worked really quickly for her, so there is light at the end of the tunnel. I'm here if you need anymore help/support - GOOD LUCK!

Hayley , wellcome to this website. it is a wonderful resource for parents.
I go along with Chanelno5's advice. My sister's little boy was about the same age as yours and she was at the end of her tether and tried this technique and in her case it worked in about three nights.
Each time you leave him crying, wait two more minutes before you go in. In other words leave him for , say, three minutes the first time, five the second, seven, nine, eleven, and so on. It may be very tough but is likely to be very successful if you persevere. Are you on your own with your son or do you have a partner who can help with this routine?
Two other points to make. This will work best if you put him in his own cot or bed.
Secondly, when you go in to comfort him, do not pick him up ( unless he is standing up in his cot, in which case lie him back down again ). Just stroke his head and perhaps say " It's sleepy time. Go to sleep" Don't get involved in a conversation. Don't stay in the room for more than a few moments.
Best of luck and do tell us how you get on.

Hiya Hayley - can only agree with Chanelno5 - it is the only way I have found to get my son into a routine. Try to get things sorted now, before he can climb out of his cot (which won't be that far away) otherwise you might find it gets even harder! If all else fails ask your health visitor whether they have a sleep clinic - my sister had dreadful problems with her son and ended up going to a sleep clinic where they set out a programme for her to follow. She did and now, finally, her son goes to sleep when she wants him too and not the other way around. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Hi Hayley
How about trying to keep him awake longer during the day? I asume he has naps. You could try and keep him awake for as long as possible during the day, or let him have shorter naps by waking him up, then he may be more worn out in the evening and sleep earlier and for longer. This is how I first got mine into a routine. HTH Angelina

Hayley, when my twin daughters were 10 months old I had the same problem, and as I was working needed to resolve it. I varied the technique outlined previously by chanelno5, as 'controlled crying' was not for me. I started off by putting them to bed, and just sitting quietly on the floor by the cot, not making eye contact, and repeating (in a very monotonous voice!) 'sleepy time. go to sleep'. Because I was in the room they didn't cry, and as I was very boring they eventually went to sleep. (after about an hour). After a couple of nights sitting by the cot I moved onto the landing, within sight, but again not making eye contact. By the fourth or fifth day I was able to leave them to go to sleep. They have been brilliant at going off to sleep alone ever since, even in strange places. It was a no-stress way of achieving this, without the agony of leaving them to cry. I know that works for some people but I didn't want to go through it.

Hayley,
Hi there, not all of us agree with the controlled crying techniques advised by others on this thread! Your son sounds just like my daughter at this age, I just persevered, usually turning the light out at 9pm and spending the next 3 hours trying to get the little wretch to sleep. When she turned 1 year she suddenly became a fantastic sleeper and would drop off really easily c 9 pm, and she's never looked back.
Good luck, whatever you decide.

Hi Hayley (WARNING - THIS GOT VERY LONG!)

It seems you have unwittingly encouraged his late bedtime and also he is rewarded by getting to sleep in your bed. Does he have his own cot/bed? A cot would be ideal since he would be more likely to stay in it than a bed. Perhaps that is part of the problem, he is too easily able to "escape" the bed and consequently the bedtime! If he doesn't have one, make a big thing out of going to choose either a cot or bed. If he does have one, make it special to him by letting him choose a blanket or comforter or toy.

I think the other problem is lack of an established routine - you say yourself that you "gave up" when he was 8 months old. That's a shame, since you've just made it harder to break his bad habits now! All is not lost though, so don't despair. BUT you will need to persevere and be strong and tough with him - sounds like he's the boss of bedtime when it should be you!

Your son needs to learn to fall asleep by himself, preferably in his own bed or cot, unless you feel strongly about him sharing your bed.
I think the controlled crying thing at this age would be worth a try, but you would need to be really determined to see it through. I tried this with my dd at around 10 months as she kept waking for a night feed, which I knew she didn't really need. I didn't do the whole "don't touch them or talk to them or pick them up" thing, but I would just pat her bottom and say "time to sleep now, shhh" etc, then as soon as she calmed even a little I would leave, lengthening the gap each time before I went back in. At 15 months you will either need a cot or a doorgate to stop him simply running away from you! Expect a lot of yelling, possibly hitting etc, as he will be angry at this change in routine. But know that it will only be for a few nights and will make life easier and bedtime more enjoyable for both of you!

Initially I think it would be best to try the gentle approach suggested by someone else (lost the page now), and stay in his room after you put him to bed. You could even put a bed or mattress for yourself in his room and stay until he goes to sleep. Pretend to be asleep and do not go to him, though...again you will still need to be tough! But it is less heartwrenching than the true controlled crying method! Encourage and praise any little progress he makes and don't let him slip into old habits, not even for just one night, or he'll think it's worth a try another night!

Once you have settled him in his own room, I would add/continue the following:

Set a regular bedtime and stick to it - any time between 7 and 8pm is reasonable. (You might need to gradually bring your son's closer to this time, by putting him to bed 15 to 30 mins earlier every night for a fortnight or so.) Develop a routine that is easy for you and your son to follow, eg change nappy, brush teeth, read story, go to bed, stay in bed til morning. Tell your son half an hour before bedtime that it will be bedtime soon. You can even set the oven or microwave timer to be a reminder signal. You could reward going to bed well by reading an extra story in bed or singing a quiet song.
When you say goodnight and leave, ignore any requests or protests, or at least delay your return!!!

YOU CAN DO IT HAYLEY - AND SO CAN YOUR SON! Good luck, let us know how it goes!

There've been lots of other debates on sleeping techniques on this site, which maybe you'd like to look up, Hayley. Apologies if this was not your intention, Mollipops, but your posting sounds as though you think that having baby in bed with you is a bad habit too! My second and third babies both slept with me from the start, and for the first year or so, they went to bed at the same time as I did. After that, they became fairly persuadable, and lights out is now at 9pm, which seems to suit them. They all sleep in their own beds now of course.
I think you have to make the distinction between a baby and an older child. A baby is going to get the sleep it needs one way or another in the day. Babies are all different of course, but I don't think it's a great cause for concern for the baby's welfare if he doesn't sleep til late in the evening and seems happy with it. When he is older, and has more structured activities during the day, eg nursery school, playgroup, then bedtime becomes more important for him, but it's easier to get them off at that age as well, because you can talk to them, and read stories etc.
Right now, I don't think you need to worry about forcing a routine on him for his own good, especially if he won't have it. It does take up a lot of time, but it's only for a few months after all. My niece is currently the same age, she goes off around 9pm and then wakes 3 or four times in the next 3 hours, when she gets mums full attention to get back to sleep, before going off for the night around midnight. Her mum is going along with it as she doesn't like so called "sleep training" methods.

Hi sml

Hayley did actually ask for help in getting her son to sleep at a "normal" time (and as much as I dislike that word, I have to agree that after midnight is not "normal" for a 15 month old!), so it seems she is not happy about it, unlike your sister/sil.

I realise now you are right that I did give the impression of not "agreeing" with the same-bed sleeping thing, it is only my opinion and what has worked for me, so my apologies if I sounded judgemental in any way. I know it does work for some families very well, but I don't think it is working for Hayley right now! I just think it might take a change in usual routine to get her son sleeping independently (ie learning to fall asleep himself, not necessarily BY himself) and at a "reasonable" hour. It must be exhausting for Hayley, especially if he does not sleep well at night or through the day...

That would be a good bit of info actually so if Hayley reads this - how long and when does he nap in the daytime?

Sml, when the methods are called 'sleep training' it makes it sound like you think of animal training. However, if you called it what it is, i.e. a temper tantrum because mummy won't give me her full attention and stay in my room with me while I sleep....then I think its clear that saying no is no more cruel than denying a child the bag of sweets whilst going around sainsbury's!! Your sister(in-law) is bending over backwards to accomodate her daughter, when it would surely be better off for all of them if the child learnt to get to sleep on her own - it certainly sound as if Hayley would appreciate an easier life or am being to sensible???

BTW Sml, nice to 'talk' to you again - have missed your postings!

Bully for your niece's mum, sml! But I can honestly say that that if my child went to bed at 9pm and then woke 3 or 4 times a night till midnight it would drive me mad. I just know that if that's a long term thing, it is not good for either the child or the mum (meanwhile, Enid tries to remember where she hid that flame-proof helmet). There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to encourage a good, healthy, normal sleep pattern. By normal I mean a child who sleeps happily and well, without needing constant reassurance every few hours.

I understand that all children go through phases of sleeping badly, my 2 year old has just gone through a particularly bad one. But surely your aim as a parent should be to try and sort out whatever problem there is and encourage and help them to get a full, restful, recharging night's sleep.

I think Chanel/mollipop's advice to Hayley was great and very useful (sorry, probably unlike this mini-rant).

I feel very uncomfortable with the concept of babies being said to have 'temper tantrums'. As they have no other way of communicating, how are they supposed to relate their needs? To label a baby with temper tantrums at such a tender age has the potential to turn awkward situations into a power struggle, imo. I know some people feel you 'make a rod for your own back' if you aquiesce(sp?) to a baby but with our four children, we've found that fulfilling their needs when small, (even at a cost to ourselves - child free evenings are very nice but not essential!) has paid dividends as they grow up, because we have for the most part avoided major power struggles and confrontations. Indeed, two of ours are now adult and they still speak to us! All just my 2p, of course, and ducking below the parapet again now.

May I ask for advise on the same thread from anyone who has experienced something similar. My ds gets himself so worked up when I try the "controlled crying technique" that he quickly makes himself sick. He's 13.5months old and has even been known to stick his fingers so far into the back of his mouth that he gags and then vomits. And this isn't after crying for hours, this is immediately. ie I put him to bed at around 7pm (a la GF routine) if he doesn't settle I go in after about 10 minutes if the cries are escalating, then if I pat his back and hush him a little, leaving after perhaps a minute, he absoluely screams and vomits within 1-2minutes. Then out of necessity I have to get him up, often re-bath, as he rolls around in the puke, (delightful!)hair and everything, change his bedding and clothes and then go through the last bit of the routine again. Lights out, quiet drink of milk, quick teeth clean, 30sec ish cuddle and into bed. Most often he will then roll over, cuddle his "blankety bear" and posset cloth and settle without even a murmur! May I point out that this isn't every night, it used to happen a lot, especially around the time that we moved house. This I could understand, but he's started doing it again recently. Twice this week, for no apparant reason. He is getting over a nasty chesty cough and cold so has been waking in the night, often for a drink of water, as he's been coughing so much. But he's much better now. So when last night he woke for the third night on the trot at around 2am, instead of picking him up, I just gave him his beaker for a drink, and told him to go back to sleep. As I listened in on the monitor after getting back into bed I could hear the gagging and retching sounds as if he was trying to make himself sick again, but must have got bored trying because after 2minutes all was quiet again, and he was still sound asleep when I went in at 7.50am this morning. (no sign of any vomit bye the way).
Do people think that this is his learnt way of getting attention. In which case, how do you break the habit, or is this just something he'll grow out of?

Honeybunny, oh your post brings back memories. My oldest son was exactly like this.

Two things I'd recommend: if possible, substitute the bedtime milk for water. If your son won't take pure water, add some milk to it, but keep it dilute, and try not to give him too much. ie not fill the beaker/bottle to the top.

I did this with my second son and he has been sick in bed far, far, less often. When my two were 13 months, their stomachs just couldn't hold both a supper of solids and a beaker/bottle of night time milk. However, they still wanted to guzzle a drink for comfort just before bed.

Secondly, as you probably know, the mucus from his cold, plus his night coughing, make it more likely he'll be sick, so hopefully when he's finally better, the vomiting will decrease somewhat.

I have to say my first son was a great night vomiter. When he was younger, I put some of it down to attention-seeking, but when he was older and could explain himself more, I began to change my view and felt it had a physical cause - too much mucas or a too full stomach! He did grow out of it, but not until he was 4 or 5, though it got progressively better during toddlerhood.

Also, it could be worth finding out if your son has reflux. I didn't think my son did, and neither did our doctor, but I think you son's night vomiting is something that needs to be checked out by a professional.

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Hi mollipops, actually my point was partly that people have different ideas of normal bedtimes, though even I agree that midnight's a bit late at 15 months. Must confess, I misread Hayley's posting and thought she said her son was younger than 15 months! But sleeping in the same bed can still work. Decide on the bedtime YOU want, switch out the light and lie down next to your baby as though you are going to sleep yourself. Hopefully they won't twig it's earlier, especially if you do it in stages, moving the bedtime forward by a few minutes each night for a week.
Obviously, this wouldn't suit everybody, but it's an alternative to the sleep training kind of methods, and it worked for me.

Hi Lil, how are you, are you still working p/t and how is it going?
Re my sil, she thinks that her baby is too young to have to learn to sleep on its own - I agree!

Enid, my sil sticks with her baby's habits because she knows it won't last for ever and she's confident that her baby will grow into a good sleeper in time. She also feels that her daughter is still too young to deny her milk when she asks for it.

I second your comments, Sml. There are many ways to skin a cat, and who's to say what's normal!

Hi SueDonim
Just a note on "temper tantrums" - we're not talking about tiny babies here, who I agree are unable to express themselves other than by crying etc. A child of 18 months is quite capable of a temper tantrum, sometimes even younger than that...and yes it is actually quite "normal" too! But it depends on how they are handled on how frequent they become and whether they continue beyond age 3!
PS sml your idea on the gradual gentle approach is actually very similar to one of my suggestions!