I want to have more babies....but I'm scared no-one will ever employ me again!

[Kathy1972]

Someone tell me what I should do, please!

Had my first dd 8 months ago. Went back to work 3 months ago. It has been brilliant, I love her and I really enjoy my work. DH is fantastic at doing more than his share of domestic stuff, we have a lovely day nursery, everything is rosy. :)

BUT - I am dying to have another baby, NOW! It's funny - I never had any kind of baby hunger before I had dd, but now I am just desperate to have another. (Did anyone else find this?) I love large families and would really like to have 4 or 5 children in total (I am just 34 so it may just about be possible!) But while I am happy working full time ATM, I don't think it would be nearly as easy with more than one child. Also they older they get the more interesting they are IMO, so while I was bored to tears by the end of my mat. leave, I am enjoying time with DD more and more. So, I could imagine going down the SAHM route. DH does not earn much but we have simple tastes, so we could just about afford it. :)

But it took me over a year to find my current job (academic), it was my first real job after doing my PhD, and I'm fairly sure it would be practically impossible to get back into academia after a career break - have never heard of anyone doing it. Also, my academic cv leaves me overqualified for most other jobs, so what if, 10 years down the line when kids are older and I want to go back to work, I can't find anything?

Advice someone, please....!!!!

Oh, and DH is supportive whatever I want to do, bless him :)

Agree Kathy1972. I have 3 children and my childcare costs are close to £2000 a month (1 in after-school and 2 in nursery.) We are quite high earners, but it still seem ridiculous. Agree you have to be either very rich or very poor to have more than 2 children and it's very unfair.

hi kathy

i'm an academic and had 3 children in 4 years but didn't take long career breaks. i do think it's very difficult to get back in after 5 or 10 years totally out of it, but certainly in my field (social science) it's not too hard to work part time or very flexibly. In RAE terms, i was careful to have a rush of publications before child 1, and actually for the RAE you only need (in my field) 4 journal articles in a few years so it's not been too hard to keep that up, even though i publish far less than before children. you have to be a bit strategic and focused I think.

as for the weekend conferences, I have a lot of these as I work on European projects with quite a lot of travelling, but I find it's compensated by having a lot of time off midweek, I find it far more flexible than most jobs are.

Marina - yes, good idea. A similar thing would be to move sideways into academic administration, which would make use of my experience as an academic. I like the teaching and research though, especially supervising PhDs (glowing from lovely meeting with PhD student just now).
I was getting a bit hysterical when I said 'will anyone ever employ me again' - it's just the year of unemployment was so ghastly and soul-destroying I panic when I think of being in that position again.

Honeyflower - the study leave I'm due was originally due to me this time last year. It got postponed for 1 semester because too many other people were due it that term. Then another because it clashed with my mat leave. Then I was meant to be having it this semester but it got postponed again because again too many other people were due it ( - should have argued with this one but was heavily PG when I was told and not feeling up to a fight). So as you can see I'm not too keen to postpone it again .
TBH if I'm sick during study leave, or have to postpone it again, my chances of going into RAE 2007 are well and truly screwed. Childbirth death and taxes, never a convenient moment for any of 'em! :)

Fennel - very, very wise of you to time your publications like that!
I've been in the classic new-lecturer-on-whom-teaching-and-admin-gets-dumped situation and hence not done as much research as I should have done in the last few years - should have been more assertive in saying no. Fortunately my HoD took pity on me and removed my biggest admin job at the start of this term so I'm getting more research done now than ever before (and I didn't have a baby before!) but without the study leave I won't make my 3 publications (I get some leeway for the mat. leave and sick leave).

kathy

much as i like my job, and would never want to be SAHM, the RAE is just a hoop. maybe you won't realistically get enough publications for the 2007 RAE but will you actually get into trouble for that? if you're new in an academic job, and have have maternity leave/s, there should be some understanding. in the longer run it can be a job which works well with children. for me the hardest thing is working with many workaholics who never stop working and assume everyone else should also not stop. but if you can control the workload and expectations, it can be very convenient for fitting around the children as well as an interesting job.

Fennel - I don't think they would have a leg to stand on if they tried to get rid of me for not going into the RAE, but I'm sure they wouldn't want to anyway as I'm far too useful. :)
It could interfere with my chance of getting promoted, though, and also would affect my chances of getting a job somewhere else if I wanted.
Totally agree that just a hoop - that's the only sane way to regard it - but a hoop through which it is useful to be able to jump IYKWIM....

I think there's some sort of balance in between being a SAHM (as you suggest you consider in your first post) and being a full time academic worrying about promotion. I have 3 young children I see a lot of, and a job i really like but have to accept i am not going to get promoted as quickly as my child-free friends who are really going places now in their academic careers. i am about to move to a new job which is slightly below my current level, because i want to live in another part of the country and see a lot of the children rather than worry about promotion and RAE submissions. I think academic jobs are quite good in that you can tread water for a while and yes, you won't get promoted as quickly, but you can worry about that in a few years.

on the "have to be rich to have more than 2 children" front. we aren't rich. I have calculated however that we save about 10K in childcare costs every year through my job - both through it being so flexible we need less formal childcare, especially less after school and holiday care, through saving on commuting time by working at home a lot, and also because we have a subsidised uni nursery without tax. academic jobs aren't great on money, of course. but the flexibility can be used to save money compared to rigid hours jobs.

Fennel - yes, middle ground is probably best. It kind of goes against the grain though - years of committing oneself absolutely to things and being prepared to compete.

We don't save much on childcare now, except insofar as it's a campus day nursery and hence good value, because we have a full-time nursery place - I wasn't prepared to spend a day a week attempting to combine work with looking after a baby, which some friends of ours do (mostly with not much success). But once they're at school we will probably be able to manage without pre-school/after-school childcare, which will save money, as you say.
Out of interest how old are your children, Fennel, and do you manage to fit in work much when they are in the house?

KAthy, nobody says that having two children and a full time academic job is an easy ride, but, many people don't have other option and they manage OK.

I used to be a lecturer many years ago, I took a career break and, sorry not to be positive, but it has been imposible to go back, I have go back to Uni but still it's difficult (especially because I'm not in a position to move and there are no studies of my area in local universities).

I don't know which is your subject area but mine certainly evolved a lot while I was on my career break, I have to re train myself in most software I used to be fluent in and that is very expensive, especially when you don't have that software to practice at home.

My advise would be to do what many people do, get pregnant for a second time, and go back to work after the maternity leave. You can do it, lots and lots of people do.:)

Did you mean a day at home to do some work as well as having the children at home? Never worked for me. Can manage maybe some when dd in playgroup (not so expensive as nursery), but otherwise I ended up shouting a lot or pushing them away.

Chandra, thanks for the advice. :)
I'm hoping to have more than 2 children - that's why it's an issue really. As you say lots of people manage with two. If I only wanted 2 it would be much simpler, as I would not feel I needed to rush having the second one (I'm 34).
I've more or less made my mind up though... to get on with having the second asap and see what happens. May take ages to get pg; and then I would need to go back to work after it for at least 3 months (or I'd have to pay back the non-statutory part of maternity pay).

Interesting that several people have said what you're saying - that it really isn't easy to go back. There was always a possibility that lots of people would post saying 'No, it's easy, I did it and so did loads of people I know' but that hasn't happened, which suggests my original hunch was right. Maybe I should go PT after two and see how I get on with that....

Madness - yes, attempting to work and have the baby at home at the same time. I have a friend who has been doing that a bit with her baby (6 months older than mine) and I don't think it has been terribly successful. I can imagine if you had a baby that slept all the time it might work when they were very young, but ours never did. TBH it's looking more possible now - not for things that require lots of concentration, but the little adminny stuff.

KAthy, I have a very big family and the ratio of children per couple ranges between 2-5. Most of them work and they cope fine. My main concern about having many are the nursery fees, but if you wait 2 yrs between each child you don't have to pay full fare for more than a child at the nursery.

Wow, 5! I hardly know anyone with more than 2, so it's great to hear about that Chandra.

i have 5 and for me the reason you state in your thread title is a good reason to have more!

Kathy - my children are 5, 4 and 1. so now there are 2 at school and 1 at nursery. DP and i have a day off a week each but I don't do any work that day - except sometimes when dd3 sleeps for a couple of hours and there's a work crisis. I am officially full time and work 3.5 days most weeks and then when there's a foreign meeting or conference i might work 6 days and long hours for that week, which makes up the hours. DP isn't an academic but also has flexible hours, rather like an academic, so between us we have a lot of freedom to mix and match our working hours and childcare.

Friends who've tried not using childcare and doing academic work around the baby/child have struggled, as you and madness say. I find it quite stressful to do that regularly, personally I would rather pay for more childcare, but we aren't struggling financially, if we were I would use less childcare and work more in the evenings, lots of colleagues I know do that.

it does go against the grain to accept treading water rather than progressing. i am having wobbles about choosing a less stressful job next (in Devon, for 3 days a week initially) rather than a "proper" career move to something more challenging. but am sure it makes sense in terms of quality of life, just my academic ego suffers a bit.

Fennel - it's nice that you feel able to take time off in lieu - DH and I are still just kind of accepting that part of the deal is the weekend conferences etc on top of the normal week, so in total I am still doing at least as many hours as before I had dd. Maybe that needs to stop....

Seems rotten that you've had your leave postponed twice Kathy - how come all the other 'too many people' were ahead of you in the queue both times? Completely see that you want to make the most of it this time!

I think Fennel's advice is really good. I organise my work in quite similar ways to her. I've justified that to myself by taking a long hard look at my colleagues, and what they actually do - and making a clear decision that I don't have to be one of the most high-flying, prolifically publishing ones, but that it's OK to be in the mid-range, keeping up a modest and respectable output. Or that I don't have to totally revise and improve all my modules every year, but that doing a good module the same way 3 years in a row is fine. And then I thought about what I actually needed to put in to achieve that, and realised that I didn't actually need to work myself into the ground and ignore my kids.

There IS a long-hours, work-obsessive culture in academia, but academics are often their own worst enemies in colluding with it, IME. One of my colleagues told me a couple of weeks ago that she'd just had her first day without doing any work in the current academic year. She even worked on Christmas day, FFS. I absolutely KNOW that her HoD (who took himself off for 3 weeks of Caribbean sunshine over Christmas!) would not require that of her, and indeed would be horrified that she thinks it's necessary. Having kids helps me keep work in perspective, and stops me being so insanely driven. Which has to be good, I think!

Kathy, I think as most people on here have pointed out, it is entirely possible. I too work in academia (ttc my first at the moment). I have done what Marina suggested. I am qualifying to become a librarian/information scientist to ensure that post-baby there is part time work open to me other than lecturing if I struggle to get back on the ladder. I even do a few hours in a specialised library to learn the job and thankfully I absolutely love it.

I have a female colleague who had her first and then conceived her second on mat. leave. She has come back part time and although her stress levels are off the scale, the work in itself is entirely manageable. The only problem she has encountered (and tbh she isn't aware of the half of it) is the attitude from a couple of older male professors. The snide comments, 'forgetting' to invite her to department meetings and altogether altered attitude towards her is tangible. She doesn't give a monkeys about their opinion really, but she is probably stronger than I am and that attitude would really grate. Hopefully your colleagues aren't as immature.

Good luck and imho I think your ability to get back on the career ladder will be as dependent upon your determination to do so as it is the current academic climate. If you know you want both, then do both (I don't mean to sound blase, I know there is discrimination and plenty of unforseen obstacles to getting back into work), but I truly believe that making the initial decision and trusting in it is the first step to achieving it. Ooh get me, useless motivational speaker that I appear to be morphing into. Repeat after me, 'you can do it...'

shut up kleg!

I'd agree with honeyflower that academics are generally bad at perpetuating the work-obsessiveness. It's easy to get very involved in work when you're interested in the topic, and flattering to be invited to conferences, contribute to books, etc.

like honeyflower i've been taking a long hard look at my colleagues. especially the ones who are most successful - i work on a big team with lots of professors. and tehy are all crazily working, making themselves ill, working all weekends and holidays, and forgetting why they are doing it. several of the team are ill at present with cancer, panic attacks, suspected brain tumour. but they are still on email sending in abstracts to conferences, arranging meetings, writing papers. stuff which could be left for another time. and they are all professors already so don't need to worry about promotion. it's scary. observing my colleagues has been a motivation for going sideways in next job rather than trying to go up while also seeing children, and having a life as well.

i get a bit heated on this topic. it's concerned me a lot, can you tell?

Long hours culture in academia - oh, I so agree! There are certain people in my dept (about to retire early, as it happens) who will never admit to reading a novel or watching any tv - if you mention something you've seen or watched you get the answer, 'Oh, I wish I had time to read/watch tv!' Then there's someone a friend of mine was a JRF with who always used to run from the porter's lodge back to her office when she went to collect post, the implication being that she was far too busy to walk anywhere.

Kleggie - no, you would make a very good motivational speaker - perhaps you could consider that as a (better paid) alternative to academia should you ever get tired of the library work.
Fortunately my colleagues don't tend to have the antediluvian attitudes you describe - most people have the regulation 2 children, but when my (male) HoD had his he was the only person with kids in the dept, so he is very aware of the issues.
It does seem to be a bit different for men though - don't know if others have found this. If I have to miss work because of a baby-related issue I try to keep quiet about it but male colleagues seem to positively revel in it. My dh has several times taken dd to a meeting, which I would not dream of doing!
Honeyflower, the reason why others got study leave instead of me was a bit of misbegotten RAE strategy - the assumption was that senior staff should be first in the queue because they were more likely to produce important outputs. But it is backfiring horribly for reasons I will not go into!
Thank you so much for the advice about being 'mid-range' and doing 'modest and respectable' work - this is really helpful as a way to conceptualise one's career.